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Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO
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ummwellduh
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

otisbrown@pa.net wrote:
Quote:
ummwellduh wrote:
i want to get the gist of each person's research, education,
experience, belief,
brainwashing etc regarding this issue and avoid running around
understanding
the complicated experiments an what they signify, and whether or not
they apply to
humans...thats why i want to know the *personal* opinion not
professional one [although
t can be based on [professional knowledge]
.......
and then try out [or not] non invasive, safe [according to me],
relatively easy
[ie not requiring revolutionary changes in daily life] stuff to improve
unaided vision.

Dear Friend,

If you read Dr. Judy's post -- then any "clearing" you might
experience is a matter of "random" chance. You
should factor her judgment into any judgment or decision you
might make.

i would consider it lucky to be that 'random' case

Quote:

You will find that the "experts" profoundly DISAGREE on
PREVENTION. Some say it is possiible, others, impossible.

i guess i am beyond 'prevention' stage...not so young anymore

Quote:
What ever you decide, I would suggest that you
post your current "prescription", and that
you personally determine what you can read
on your Snellen.
When you say "improvement" is it wise to understand
your "starting" point -- and your desired "end-point",
and the PROBABILITY that you can reach your
desired goal -- or not.

i am not sure if i want to make it another 'project'
measuring and tracking it in a 'professional' way..
and i am not entering any snellen chart contest...
so it is fine if it is just a qualitative 'improvment',
i am not trying to prove any one method's effictiveness
in any quantitavie way.... i will know when i see clearly,
regardless of what the chart or statistics say...

Quote:
And as you say -- with very slight effort.

From what I have seen, I would suggest that if you
are in any "deeper" than about 20/60 -- you
probably will not be successful.

Assuming minimum effort.

i am not sure "effort" is the way to go ...

Quote:

But good luck. Let us know what you decide.

Best,

Otis

thanks
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Mike Tyner
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1299

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

<otisbrown@pa.net> wrote

Quote:
You will find that the "experts" profoundly DISAGREE on
PREVENTION. Some say it is possiible, others, impossible.

This is frankly a lie. Otis plays it like half the experts agree with him.
Really it's more like 1 in 1000.

Quote:
What ever you decide, I would suggest that you
post your current "prescription", and that
you personally determine what you can read
on your Snellen.

Which accomplishes exactly nothing except massaging Otis' ego.

Quote:
When you say "improvement" is it wise to understand
your "starting" point -- and your desired "end-point",
and the PROBABILITY that you can reach your
desired goal -- or not.

Yeah, if you're testing refraction, it's probably best to test refraction.
So why do you insist on testing acuity?

Quote:
From what I have seen, I would suggest that if you
are in any "deeper" than about 20/60 -- you
probably will not be successful.

Wise prediction. So axial myopia can be cured if it's better than "about
20/60"?

-MT
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Mike Tyner
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1299

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

"ummwellduh" <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote

Quote:
i dont know how to identify an ethical person from unethical.....
let alone physicians....[_and_ i dont want to know *how*...]

What you _do_ want to know - a promise to reduce axial myopia with exercises
or lenses would not come from an "ethical" doctor.

So far, I count three or professionals answering "no". I don't hear anybody
saying "yes."

-MT
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Robert Redelmeier
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

ummwellduh <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote in part:
Quote:
thats a personal opinion i dont remember asking!

You didn't. But posters can answer however they please.
You cannot control debate but you might be able to shape it.
I see you doing a poor job even for your own aims.

Quote:
and a these seem like good reasons not to tell 'how I would
use it [*data*]'

So you must not expect [m]any of your desired replies.

-- Robert
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ummwellduh
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

Charles wrote:
Quote:
Mike Tyner wrote:


Is it possible to slow the progress of myopia with effort or training
or exercise?

Myopia specialists don't believe so. The FDA doesn't think so.
Respected authorities don't approve of the practice because nothing
has been found that works, when compared to nontreated controls.


How about by not reading or doing as much close work? I think there
_is_ science to connect close work to the development of myopia, right?
Whether this "cure" is worse than the disease is another question.
--

true. hardly possible to avoid near work forever...but, as long as you
think it *cures*...
the implication is significant
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ummwellduh
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

acemanvx@yahoo.com wrote:
Quote:
ummwellduh wrote:
hello all

i am interested in knowing what each of you [expert or not] personally
think about this. pls use all the scientific or otherwise knowledge you
possess, just personal opinions, based on our education, religious
beliefs and misconceptions, erasoned judgement, ... all the shabang,
and the final gist of it.

Just answer in YES/NO

Question: Is it possible for *at least one* person with elongated
eyeball myopia [not the other temporary kind] to improve sight and get
better unaided far vision [he may use them while improving], without
any invasive/medical procedures. If you have seen even one case, or
think it is million to one shot, please respond YES, otherwise NO.

thanks for your input


Probably not. Once your eyeball enlongates into axial myopia, its
permanent. Sorry to say. This is why Otis preaches and advocates
prevention at the treshold. What is your prescription now and how old
were you when you got your first glasses? You may be able to relieve
tonic accomodation which will reduce your prescription. OrthoK can
further reduce your myopia. Theres lasik and even IOLs but both options
are risky and may ruin your clear correctable vision.

assuming someone never did any eye exercises, and has axial myopia,
and into 40s, would that mean he/she still might have tonic
accomodation
left from young age that can be relieved and some improvment made?
as i understand, tonic accomodation is a reversible thing as opposed to
axial myopia.
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Scott Seidman
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

"ummwellduh" <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote in news:1153331408.751196.281610
@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Quote:
thats a personal opinion i dont remember asking!


Frankly, if you don't welcome the discussion you generated, ignore it, or
don't post it to usenet in the first place


--
Scott
Reverse name to reply
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Sandy
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

Quote:

Just answer in YES/NO


Absolutely, YES.

Unless you mean enough improvement to actually make a difference. Then
NO.
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ummwellduh
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

Mike Tyner wrote:
Quote:
"ummwellduh" <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote

i dont know how to identify an ethical person from unethical.....
let alone physicians....[_and_ i dont want to know *how*...]

What you _do_ want to know - a promise to reduce axial myopia with exercises
or lenses would not come from an "ethical" doctor.

So far, I count three or professionals answering "no". I don't hear anybody
saying "yes."

-MT

looks like its a unanimous NO...on this thread
i went thru some other posts, and found you mentioned
the book projector might work. could you pls elaborate how
it might work? or did you mean only the tonic accomodation?
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ummwellduh
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

his personal opinion on me is not generated by me and its totally off
the topic...
and to point it out goes in the direction of 'shaping the discussion'
as he himself mentions...


Scott Seidman wrote:
Quote:
"ummwellduh" <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote in news:1153331408.751196.281610
@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

thats a personal opinion i dont remember asking!


Frankly, if you don't welcome the discussion you generated, ignore it, or
don't post it to usenet in the first place


--
Scott
Reverse name to reply
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Mike Tyner
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1299

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

"ummwellduh" <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote in message

Quote:
looks like its a unanimous NO...on this thread
i went thru some other posts, and found you mentioned
the book projector might work. could you pls elaborate how
it might work? or did you mean only the tonic accomodation?

The relationship between myopia and accommodation has been studied so many
times, from so many different angles that a direct relationship would have
stood out. And it just ain't there.

The same, simple statistics DO show a relationship between hours spent in
close work, and how close they hold their work. For those reasons, doctors
recommend work breaks and reasonable reading distances (google "Harmon
distance"). (Simple statistics also show that atropine daily will
more-or-less halt the progress of myopia.

In developing myopia, we KNOW working distance and time matter. We KNOW
accommodation isn't involved because we've manipulated it with lenses. So we
have to ask what's left. I can think of a couple of things, mainly
convergence and "awareness of near". The experts might come up with one or
two more factors that make close vision different from far vision. But the
projector might well address the "closeness" factor in a way that uniquely
slows the rate of myopia creep.

In other words, we can't fool the eye with lenses, but we might by moving
the working distance out in real space. I can't say I've seen any study that
addressed this. That's why the projector idea can't be counted out.

Problem is, we think environment only accounts for at most 20% of myopia.
The rest seems to be hard-wired and genetic. So is it worth the cost of an
overhead projector and the disruption of having to use a clunky doo-dah to
read, when you're 12 years old?

What few effects _have_ been found by manipulating lenses or doing
excercises or wearing/not wearing were too small and unpredictable to be
"clinically useful." Not to say it can't happen. But you won't find many
doctors recommending it.

-MT, OD
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