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Ph Balancing
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J
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 612

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: Ph Balancing (steph) Reply with quote

madiba wrote:

Quote:
Peter Moran <pmoran@bordernet.com.au> wrote:

"J W" <jonboy42@webtv.net> wrote in message


Bottom line if someone comes here with a thought or idea let the
majority decide if it is something that they are willing to try or not
and keep your thoughts to yourself unless you have physically tried
them. History is riddled with dumb sounding ideas that went on to become
very useful ideas because intelligent people encourage free thinking and
new ideas. Ignorant people oppose anything that isn't tried and true
tested, even if it has been proven to be extremely costly and shown
only limited success. In otherwords if you aint got something good to
say, don't speak because people who are very ill with this disease do
not need negativity.
Its very simple. If you have an idea about an alternative method of
treating cancer put it in an alt.cancer newsgroup.
If and when your idea works verifiably, put it in this NG.

No thanks, he'll get the same answers, from me, Steph and many others.
J
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Matti Narkia
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 425

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: Ph Balancing Reply with quote

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 23:42:49 GMT, "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Quote:

"J W" <jonboy42@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19261-44AFE691-262@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net...
Actually you are quite wrong. Excessive sugar consumption among other
things can and does throw your gut's PH off which can cause yeast
overgrowth as well as candida yeast overgrowth which causes your immune
system to suffer greatly as 40% of your body's imune system is in your
gut and I think it's common knowledge that a comprimised immune system
cannot effectively destroy mutated body cells which we all get numerous
times during our lives.

The whole yeast thing is crap:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/candida.html

I agree.


Quote:
Besides, we have these neat things called "kidneys" that maintain the body's
pH in the proper balance.

To a certain extent, yes. But in many cases acid load from diet is

just a little bit too much for kidneys to cope and mild chronic
metabolic acidosis follows. This becomes more common with age when
kidneys' performance starts slowly going down.

Still, this has nothing do with cancer, IMHO, but it could cause
muscle protein breakdown and increase the risk of osteoporosis.


--
Matti Narkia
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Matti Narkia
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 425

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Ph Balancing Reply with quote

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 04:35:00 +0300, Matti Narkia <mna@mbnet.fi> wrote:

Quote:
On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 23:42:49 GMT, "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com
wrote:

"J W" <jonboy42@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19261-44AFE691-262@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net...
Actually you are quite wrong. Excessive sugar consumption among other
things can and does throw your gut's PH off which can cause yeast
overgrowth as well as candida yeast overgrowth which causes your immune
system to suffer greatly as 40% of your body's imune system is in your
gut and I think it's common knowledge that a comprimised immune system
cannot effectively destroy mutated body cells which we all get numerous
times during our lives.

The whole yeast thing is crap:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/candida.html

I agree.

Besides, we have these neat things called "kidneys" that maintain the body's
pH in the proper balance.

To a certain extent, yes. But in many cases acid load from diet is
just a little bit too much for kidneys to cope and mild chronic
metabolic acidosis follows. This becomes more common with age when
kidneys' performance starts slowly going down.

Related Medline references:


Kurtz I, Maher T, Hulter HN, Schambelan M, Sebastian A.
Effect of diet on plasma acid-base composition in normal humans.
Kidney Int. 1983 Nov;24(5):670-80.
PMID: 6663989 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=6663989&dopt=Abstract>

May RC, Kelly RA, Mitch WE.
Metabolic acidosis stimulates protein degradation in rat muscle by a
glucocorticoid-dependent mechanism.
J Clin Invest. 1986 Feb;77(2):614-21.
PMID: 3511100 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=3511100>

"... We conclude that chronic metabolic acidosis depresses
nitrogen utilization and increases glucocorticoid
production. The combination of increased glucocorticoids and
acidosis stimulates muscle proteolysis but does not affect
protein synthesis. These changes in muscle protein
metabolism may play a role in the defense against acidosis
by providing amino acid nitrogen to support the glutamine
production necessary for renal ammoniagenesis."

Breslau NA, Brinkley L, Hill KD, Pak CY.
Relationship of animal protein-rich diet to kidney stone formation and
calcium metabolism.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1988 Jan;66(1):140-6.
PMID: 2826524 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2826524>

Lemann J Jr, Gray RW, Pleuss JA.
Potassium bicarbonate, but not sodium bicarbonate, reduces urinary
calcium excretion and improves calcium balance in healthy men.
Kidney Int. 1989 Feb;35(2):688-95.
PMID: 2540373 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2540373>

Bushinsky DA.
Net calcium efflux from live bone during chronic metabolic, but not
respiratory, acidosis.
Am J Physiol. 1989 May;256(5 Pt 2):F836-42.
PMID: 2719118 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://ajprenal.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/256/5/F836>

Williams B, Layward E, Walls J.
Skeletal muscle degradation and nitrogen wasting in rats with chronic
metabolic acidosis.
Clin Sci (Lond). 1991 May;80(5):457-62.
PMID: 1851685 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=1851685&dopt=Abstract>

"1. Chronic metabolic acidosis is associated with impaired
growth and negative nitrogen balance, suggesting that it
promotes endogenous protein catabolism. 2. Skeletal muscle
is the major repository of body protein and is a potential
target for stimuli of protein catabolism. 3. This study in
vivo examines the effects of chronic metabolic acidosis on
the relationship between growth, nitrogen disposal and
skeletal muscle catabolism in the rat. 4. Growth, nitrogen
utilization and acquisition of body mass were significantly
impaired in acidotic animals compared with pair-fed
controls. 5. Total nitrogen excretion was significantly
increased in acidotic rats despite decreased urea
production. The time course of this response to acidosis was
synchronous with that of accelerated protein catabolism in
skeletal muscle. 6. It is proposed that metabolic acidosis
impairs growth by stimulating skeletal muscle protein
catabolism. It is suggested that this forms part of a co-
ordinated multi-organ homoeostatic response to acidosis,
skeletal muscle and down-regulated urea production supplying
the nitrogen required for renal ammoniagenesis."

May RC, Masud T, Logue B, Bailey J, England BK.
Metabolic acidosis accelerates whole body protein degradation and
leucine oxidation by a glucocorticoid-dependent mechanism.
Miner Electrolyte Metab. 1992;18(2-5):245-9.
PMID: 1465068 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=1465068&dopt=Abstract>

"... We conclude that chronic metabolic acidosis accelerates
whole body protein turnover and reduces the efficiency of
protein utilization by accelerating amino acid oxidation.
These changes may require an intact glucocorticoid axis."

Mitch WE, Medina R, Grieber S, May RC, England BK, Price SR, Bailey
JL, Goldberg AL.
Metabolic acidosis stimulates muscle protein degradation by activating
the adenosine triphosphate-dependent pathway involving ubiquitin and
proteasomes.
J Clin Invest. 1994 May;93(5):2127-33.
PMID: 8182144 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=8182144>

"Metabolic acidosis often leads to loss of body protein due mainly
to accelerated protein breakdown in muscle.

[...]

These results are consistent with, but do not prove that
acidosis stimulates muscle proteolysis by activating the
ATP-ubiquitin-proteasome-dependent, proteolytic pathway."

Sebastian A, Harris ST, Ottaway JH, Todd KM, Morris RC Jr. Improved
mineral balance and skeletal metabolism in postmenopausal women
treated with potassium bicarbonate.
N Engl J Med. 1994 Jun 23;330(25):1776-81.
PMID: 8190153 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/330/25/1776>

"Background In normal subjects, a low level of metabolic
acidosis and positive acid balance (the production of more acid
than is excreted) are typically present and correlate in degree
with the amount of endogenous acid produced by the metabolism
of foods in ordinary diets abundant in protein. Over a
lifetime, the counteraction of retained endogenous acid by base
mobilized from the skeleton may contribute to the decrease in
bone mass that occurs normally with aging."

[...]

Conclusions In postmenopausal women, the oral administration of
potassium bicarbonate at a dose sufficient to neutralize
endogenous acid improves calcium and phosphorus balance,
reduces bone resorption, and increases the rate of bone
formation."

Frassetto L, Sebastian A.
Age and systemic acid-base equilibrium: analysis of published data.
J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1996 Jan;51(1):B91-9.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8548506&dopt=Abstract>

"To investigate whether systemic acid-base equilibrium
changes with aging in normal adult humans, we reviewed
published articles reporting the acid-base composition of
arterial, arterialized venous, or capillary blood in age-
identified healthy subjects. We extracted or calculated
blood hydrogen ion concentration ([H+]), plasma bicarbonate
concentration ([HCO3(-)]), blood PCO2, and age, and computed
a total of 61 age-group means, distributed among eight 10-
year intervals from age 20 to 100 years. Using linear
regression analysis, we found that with increasing age,
there is a significant increase in the steady-state blood
[H+] (p < .001), and reduction in steady-state plasma
[HCO3(-)] (p < .001), indicative of a progressively
worsening low-level metabolic acidosis. Blood PCO2 decreased
with age (p < .05), in keeping with the expected respiratory
adaptation to metabolic acidosis. Such age-related
increasing metabolic acidosis may reflect in part the normal
decline of renal function with increasing age. The role of
age-related metabolic acidosis in the pathogenesis of the
degenerative diseases of aging warrants consideration."

Frassetto LA, Morris RC, Sebastian A.
Effect of age on blood acid-base composition in adult humans: role of
age-related renal functional decline.
Am J Physiol. 1996 Dec;271(6 Pt 2):F1114-22.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8997384&dopt=Abstract>

"... Otherwise healthy adults manifest a low-grade diet-
dependent metabolic acidosis, the severity of which
increases with age at constant EAP, apparently due in part
to the normal age-related decline of renal function."

Frassetto L, Morris RC Jr, Sebastian A.
Potassium bicarbonate reduces urinary nitrogen excretion in
postmenopausal women.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997 Jan;82(1):254-9.
PMID: 8989270 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/82/1/254>

"Previously we demonstrated that low grade chronic metabolic
acidosis exists normally in humans eating ordinary diets
that yield normal net rates of endogenous acid production
(EAP), and that the degree of acidosis increases with age.
We hypothesize that such diet-dependent and age-amplifying
low grade metabolic acidosis contributes to the decline in
skeletal muscle mass that occurs normally with aging. This
hypothesis is based on the reported finding that chronic
metabolic acidosis induces muscle protein breakdown, and
that correction of acidosis reverses the effect.
Accordingly, in 14 healthy postmenopausal women residing in
a General Clinical Research Center and eating a constant
diet yielding a normal EAP rate, we tested whether
correcting their "physiological" acidosis with orally
administered potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3; 60–120 mmol/day
for 18 days) reduces their urinary nitrogen loss. KHCO3
reduced EAP to nearly zero, significantly reduced the blood
hydrogen ion concentration (P < 0.001), and increased the
plasma bicarbonate concentration (P < 0.001), indicating
that pre-KHCO3, diet-dependent EAP was significantly
perturbing systemic acid-base equilibrium, causing a low
grade metabolic acidosis. Urinary ammonia nitrogen, urea
nitrogen, and total nitrogen levels significantly decreased.
The cumulative reduction in nitrogen excretion was 14.1 ±
12.3 g (P < 0.001). Renal creatinine clearance and urine
volume remained unchanged. We conclude that in
postmenopausal women, neutralization of diet-induced EAP
with KHCO3 corrects their preexisting diet-dependent low
grade metabolic acidosis and significantly reduces their
urinary nitrogen wasting. The magnitude of the KHCO3-induced
nitrogen-sparing effect is potentially sufficient to both
prevent continuing age-related loss of muscle mass and
restore previously accrued deficits."

Frassetto LA, Todd KM, Morris RC Jr, Sebastian A.
Estimation of net endogenous noncarbonic acid production in humans
from diet potassium and protein contents.
Am J Clin Nutr. 1998 Sep;68(3):576-83.
PMID: 9734733 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/76/6/1308>

"Objective: The objective was to estimate the net systemic load
of acid (net endogenous acid production; NEAP) from retrojected
ancestral preagricultural diets and to compare it with that of
contemporary diets, which are characterized by an imbalance of
nutrient precursors of hydrogen and bicarbonate ions that
induces a lifelong, low-grade, pathogenically significant
systemic metabolic acidosis.

[...]

Results: The mean (± SD) NEAP for 159 retrojected
preagricultural diets was -88 ± 82 mEq/d; 87% were net base-
producing. The computational model predicted NEAP for the
average American diet (as recorded in the third National Health
and Nutrition Examination Survey) as 48 mEq/d, within a few
percentage points of published measured values for free-living
Americans; the model, therefore, was not biased toward
generating negative NEAP values. The historical shift from
negative to positive NEAP was accounted for by the displacement
of high-bicarbonate-yielding plant foods in the ancestral diet
by cereal grains and energy-dense, nutrient-poor foods in the
contemporary diet—neither of which are net base-producing.

Conclusions: The findings suggest that diet-induced metabolic
acidosis and its sequelae in humans eating contemporary diets
reflect a mismatch between the nutrient composition of the diet
and genetically determined nutritional requirements for optimal
systemic acid-base status. Am J Clin Nutr 2002;76:–16."

Morris RC, Schmidlin O, Tanaka M, Forman A, Frassetto L, Sebastian A.
Differing effects of supplemental KCl and KHCO3: pathophysiological
and clinical implications.
Semin Nephrol. 1999 Sep;19(5):487-93. Review.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10511388&dopt=Abstract>

Sellmeyer DE, Stone KL, Sebastian A, Cummings SR.
A high ratio of dietary animal to vegetable protein increases the rate
of bone loss and the risk of fracture in postmenopausal women. Study
of Osteoporotic Fractures Research Group.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Jan;73(1):118-22.
PMID: 11124760 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/1/118>

Buclin T, Cosma M, Appenzeller M, Jacquet AF, Decosterd LA, Biollaz J,
Burckhardt P.
Diet acids and alkalis influence calcium retention in bone.
Osteoporos Int. 2001;12(6):493-9.
PMID: 11446566 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11446566>

Tucker KL, Hannan MT, Kiel DP.
The acid-base hypothesis: diet and bone in the Framingham Osteoporosis
Study.
Eur J Nutr. 2001 Oct;40(5):231-7.
PMID: 11842948 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11842948>

"... RESULTS: As hypothesized, magnesium, potassium, fruit and
vegetable intakes were significantly associated with bone
mineral density at baseline and among men, with lower bone loss
over four years. In contrast to the hypothesis, higher rather
than lower protein intakes were associated with lower bone
loss. CONCLUSION: Together these results support the role of
base forming foods and nutrients in bone maintenance. The role
of protein appears to be complex and is probably dependent on
the presence of other nutrients available in a mixed diet. A
balanced diet with ample fruit and vegetables and adequate
protein appears to be important to bone mineral density."

Sebastian A, Frassetto LA, Sellmeyer DE, Merriam RL, Morris RC Jr.
Estimation of the net acid load of the diet of ancestral
preagricultural Homo sapiens and their hominid ancestors.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Dec;76(6):1308-16.
PMID: 12450898 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/76/6/1308>

"Objective: The objective was to estimate the net systemic load
of acid (net endogenous acid production; NEAP) from retrojected
ancestral preagricultural diets and to compare it with that of
contemporary diets, which are characterized by an imbalance of
nutrient precursors of hydrogen and bicarbonate ions that
induces a lifelong, low-grade, pathogenically significant
systemic metabolic acidosis.

[...]

Results: The mean (± SD) NEAP for 159 retrojected
preagricultural diets was -88 ± 82 mEq/d; 87% were net base-
producing. The computational model predicted NEAP for the
average American diet (as recorded in the third National
Health and Nutrition Examination Survey) as 48 mEq/d, within
a few percentage points of published measured values for
free-living Americans; the model, therefore, was not biased
toward generating negative NEAP values. The historical shift
from negative to positive NEAP was accounted for by the
displacement of high-bicarbonate-yielding plant foods in the
ancestral diet by cereal grains and energy-dense, nutrient-
poor foods in the contemporary diet—neither of which are net
base-producing.

Conclusions: The findings suggest that diet-induced
metabolic acidosis and its sequelae in humans eating
contemporary diets reflect a mismatch between the nutrient
composition of the diet and genetically determined
nutritional requirements for optimal systemic acid-base
status."

Cordain L, Eaton SB, Sebastian A, Mann N, Lindeberg S, Watkins BA,
O'Keefe JH, Brand-Miller J.
Origins and evolution of the Western diet: health implications for the
21st century.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Feb;81(2):341-54. Review.
PMID: 15699220 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/81/2/341>

"Acid-base balance

After digestion, absorption, and metabolism, nearly all foods
release either acid or bicarbonate (base) into the systemic
circulation (146, 147). As shown in Table 5Go, fish, meat,
poultry, eggs, shellfish, cheese, milk, and cereal grains are
net acid producing, whereas fresh fruit, vegetables, tubers,
roots, and nuts are net base producing. Legumes yield near-zero
mean acid values, which reflects an overlapping distribution
from slightly net acid producing to slightly net base
producing. Not shown in Table 5Go are energy-dense, nutrient-
poor foods such as separated fats and refined sugars that
contribute neither to the acid nor the base load. Additionally,
salt is net acid producing because of the chloride ion (146).

[...]

The typical Western diet yields a net acid load estimated to be
50 mEq/d (148). As a result, healthy adults consuming the
standard US diet sustain a chronic, low-grade pathogenic
metabolic acidosis that worsens with age as kidney function
declines (146, 149). Virtually all preagricultural diets were
net base yielding because of the absence of cereals and energy-
dense, nutrient-poor foods—foods that were introduced during
the Neolithic and Industrial Eras and that displaced base-
yielding fruit and vegetables (147). Consequently, a net base-
producing diet was the norm throughout most of hominin
evolution (147). The known health benefits of a net base-
yielding diet include preventing and treating osteoporosis
(150, 151), age-related muscle wasting (152), calcium kidney
stones (153, 154), hypertension (155, 156), and exercise-
induced asthma (157) and slow the progression of age- and
disease-related chronic renal insufficiency (158)."

Macdonald HM, New SA, Fraser WD, Campbell MK, Reid DM.
Low dietary potassium intakes and high dietary estimates of net
endogenous acid production are associated with low bone mineral
density in premenopausal women and increased markers of bone
resorption in postmenopausal women.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Apr;81(4):923-33.
PMID: 15817873 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/81/4/923>

Sebastian A.
Dietary protein content and the diet's net acid load: opposing effects
on bone health.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Nov;82(5):921-2.
PMID: 16280420 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/82/5/921>

Jajoo R, Song L, Rasmussen H, Harris SS, Dawson-Hughes B. Dietary
acid-base balance, bone resorption, and calcium excretion.
J Am Coll Nutr. 2006 Jun;25(3):224-30.
PMID: 16766781 [PubMed - in process]
<http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/3/224>

"Objective: Metabolic studies reveal that acidogenic diets
increase bone resorption acutely. This study was conducted to
examine associations between diet-induced changes in net acid
excretion (NAE) and changes in serum parathyroid hormone (PTH),
bone resorption, and calcium excretion over a longer period of
60 days.

Methods: Forty healthy older men and women were given 0.75 g/kg
of protein as meat, 600 mg of calcium, and 400 IU of vitamin D3
daily and either cereal (acidogenic) or fruit and vegetable
(alkalinogenic) foods as substitutes for some of the cereal in
their usual diets. Blood and 24-hr urine measurements were made
on days 14 (baseline), 44, and 74.

Results: In all subjects, change in renal NAE was correlated
with changes in serum PTH (r = 0.358, P = 0.023), urinary N-
telopeptide (NTX) (r = 0.367, P = 0.020), and urinary calcium
excretion (rp = 0.381, P = 0.020, after adjustment for diet
group, change in PTH, and change in sodium excretion).

Conclusions: Diet changes that increase renal NAE are
associated with increases in serum PTH, bone resorption, and
calcium excretion over a 60-day period."


--
Matti Narkia
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madiba
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Ph Balancing (steph) Reply with quote

J <macyinno@nospam.inv> wrote:

Quote:
madiba wrote:

Peter Moran <pmoran@bordernet.com.au> wrote:

"J W" <jonboy42@webtv.net> wrote in message


Bottom line if someone comes here with a thought or idea let the
majority decide if it is something that they are willing to try or not
and keep your thoughts to yourself unless you have physically tried
them. History is riddled with dumb sounding ideas that went on to become
very useful ideas because intelligent people encourage free thinking and
new ideas. Ignorant people oppose anything that isn't tried and true
tested, even if it has been proven to be extremely costly and shown
only limited success. In otherwords if you aint got something good to
say, don't speak because people who are very ill with this disease do
not need negativity.
Its very simple. If you have an idea about an alternative method of
treating cancer put it in an alt.cancer newsgroup.
If and when your idea works verifiably, put it in this NG.

No thanks, he'll get the same answers, from me, Steph and many others.
J
You might, but I doubt whether Steph would have problems with a therapy

thats been shown by reliable sources to work.. :-/

--
madiba
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