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Thimerosal in vaccines reduces incidence of autism
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vernon
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 405

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:08 am    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

"Jan Drew" <jdrew1374@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:IRkrg.116642$H71.105831@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Quote:

"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@nospamucalgary.ca> wrote:.
All BS, and you know it.

That's a lie. Educate yourself. Rather than show your brainwashing.


There's a paper in the wings which'll
eliminate any doubt about the autism-vaccine link; as in there is no
link:

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=bc8253e7-ec6f-4bbd-a01c-5295b731d3f9&k=7417

Eric Fombonne AMA.

What a hoot!

Comes out in this journal, probably in the next 2-3 weeks:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/

More *organized medicine*.

As for the safety, it is well established:

Established by whom??


"SAFE" applied ONLY under close supervision and by an M.D. who has had no
education in basics of maintaining health.

Prescription or applied by Physician only means "dangerous". (definition)



Quote:
[ ]

There are hundreds more of these out there, showing it s safe. What do
you have to prove it's dangerous? Nothing more then adds for products
which supposedly remove the mercury.
I have science, you have adds. I
wonder who's more likely to be right. . .

Liar.

I have posted research.


Not that we're surprised you cannot figure out the difference between
medicine and advertisements. After all, the difference between a metal
and a salt continues to elude you.

Liar. Liar. Liar.

Bryan

PS: *Look* *I* *can* *put* *words* *in* *bold* *too*. *Doesn't* *make*
*them* *any* *more* *important* *or* *correct*.

The words I posted come for those like yourself.

You have told nothing here but a bunch of lies... about me.

Just like the rest of the gang who are only here to protect, *organized
medicine*.

Get lost. Liar. This is misc.health.alternative.




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Jason
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1119

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines reduces incidence of autism Reply with quote

In article <e8kkfm$tcm$1@news.ucalgary.ca>, Bryan Heit
<bjheit@nospamucalgary.ca> wrote:

Jason Johnson wrote:
Quote:
Bryan,
Thanks for your post. I like your comments related to the following
information that I downloaded from a website.

I typed "Causes of autism" into the google search engine and could not find
any medical research reports related to the cause of autism.


A better place to look for information like this is a scientific search
engine like pubmed.gov or google scholar. This will limit your search
to scientific reports and medical studies, which'll get rid of most of
the chaff. Also, when searching for cause, the word scientists use is
"etiology". Don't ask me why; we just like big words. A search for
"etiology autism" (no quotes) in pubmed or google scholar should give
you at least 150 hits.

Also, many of the journals you'll find might charge access fees. If you
belong to a university you should have free access. If not feel free to
contact me direct (remove the nospam from my addy) and I can forward you
the relevant articles.

As for the causes of autism, we're not 100% sure. Firstly, autism is
not a single disease, but rather is a group of metal disorders which
have similar symptoms. For example, within "autism" there is Asperger's
disorder (a mild form) to spectrum disorders (severe autism). Depending
on what type of autism you look at, you'll find different things
associated with it. For example, many forms of autism appear to have
genetic links, or may be a result of chromosomal damage (similar damage
results in Downs syndrome). There is also some evidence that the immune
system is involved; perhaps by killing or damaging neurons. Lastly,
there is also evidence for hormonal misbalance. At this point it is not
clear if one, all, some, or none of these are the actual cause. Given
what we know about related metal disorders it is probably "all of the
above" plus some unknowns.

More importantly, several potential causes have been eliminated. The
idea that autism may be a result of vaccination has been thoroughly
debuked. Likewise, there doesn't seem to be a link between any
infectious diseases and autism.

Some links on cause of autism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16786424&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16766163&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16738187&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16733293&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16721319&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16720216&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16698940&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16650750&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16634517&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16602035&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16569671&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16512358&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_DocSum


Some links disproving the autism/vaccination "link":

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=bc8253e7-ec6f-4bbd-a01c-5295b731d3f9&k=7417

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15121295&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15241885&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15637857&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15215496&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16255569&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16047931&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15816809&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15595144&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15575416&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15530668&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15342856&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15342825&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15342824&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_DocSum


Quote:
Heavy Metal Toxicity
Another finding in autistic children is a higher level of heavy metals
than normal.


As you can see in the links I posted above, this link has been
thoroughly debunked. An interesting study is coming out at the end of
this month in pediatrics. Long story short, in Quebec (part of Canada)
thimerosol was eliminated fro all childhood vaccines in the mid-1990's.
The authors of this study simply compared the rates of autism in
children who had received thimerosol-containing vaccines to those who
had received thimerosol-free vaccines. Long story short - there is no
link. To quote the lead author of the study:

"In fact, in my study the incidence of (autism) is higher in the years
when there was no mercury."


http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=bc8253e7-ec6f-4bbd-a01c-5295b731d3f9&k=7417

Quote:
One source of mercury exposure in early life is through
vaccinations.


A tiny fraction of the amount you'll get from eating fish. If you're
unfortunate enough to live in a highly industrialized area you'll also
get far more from pollution.


Quote:
Thimerosal is a preservative used in many vaccinations to
prevent contamination. Thimerosal is 49.6% mercury by weight. Shockingly
in 1999 the American Food and Drug Administration released a report
stating that children who received thimerosal containing vaccinations at
multiple visits may be exposed to more mercury than is recommended by
federal guidelines. In fact, children may have been receiving 100 times
the 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of daily exposure considered safe by most
authorities worldwide.


This is both true and false. The safety guidelines for mercury were
based on safe limits for metallic mercury and methyl-mercury (a salt of
mercury). Both of these compounds are highly toxic and are retained in
the body for long periods of time. However, thimerosol breaks down into
ethyl mercury; which is both far less toxic and is rapidly excreted from
the body.

Another thing about mercury poisoning is that it usually requires long
terms of exposure for mercury to have notable toxic effects. Given that
vaccines are very transient (and low-dose) routes of mercury exposure it
is highly unlikely that even an overdose of ethyl mercury via this route
would have much of an effect.


Quote:
This report has, however, resulted in positive
action being taken. Following the publication of the report, the
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and Centers for Disease Control
(CDC) recommended that thimerosal be removed from all vaccines given to
children. A study of 2 US government databases in March 2006 shows that in
the 4 years following the recommended removal of thimerosal from childrens
vaccines, exposure of children to this toxin was reduced to almost zero,
and most importantly, new cases of autism actually began to decrease.


This claim is often made by the anti-vaccine crowds, but when asked to
furnish the studies to which this article refers, or to a study showing
a decrease in autism over the same period, they always fall silent.
I've spent a fair amount of time searching the medical literature and
cannot find these studies. Interestingly though, I have found multiple
studies which show either no effect of removing thimerosol, or even
increased autism after. I provided multiple links to this data at the
beginning of this post.


Quote:
Mercury is a known neurotoxin and could be especially harmful to the
developing brains of young children. Mercury also disrupts biochemistry
and can result in dysfunction of multiple enzyme systems and damage to
cell membranes and many proteins involved in all bodily functions. As can
be said for the MMR vaccine, increases in vaccinations correlate well with
increases in incidence of ASD's.


This is true of meucury, but not nessisarily of its salts. Thimerosol,
in high doses, is toxic. But at the doses given it is safe, even though
mercury and methyl mercury at the same dose may be toxic. John, Jan and
Dr. Haley fail to make this distinciton (between different forms of
mercury).

Just to give you an example of how different a salt can act, compared to
it's constiuent elements, lets look at table salt. Table salt consists
of a chlorine atom linked to a sodium atom. Chlorine on it's own is a
highly toxic gas - you use it to bleach your cloths, and the Germans
used it for gas warfare in WWI. Sodium is even worse; if it comes into
contact with water (or pretty much anything else) it reacts explosivly.
So if you ate chlorine, you'd die. If you tried to eat sodium your
head would disappear in a ball of flame. But put them togeather and you
get something which is relativly non-toxic, and which makes food taste
great.

Things can also work the other way. On their own, nitrogen, carbon and
hydrogen are relativly harmless. But combine them togeather in a 1:1:1
ratio and you get cyanide.

Dr. Haley would tell you that mercury is in some way special, but that
is a load of BS. All materials change their properties when they go
from an elemental to salt/molecular state. That is basic chemistry; the
kind of chemistry Dr. Haley should have learned in grade 9.


Quote:
In a paper published in the journal Neurotoxicology by The Coalition for
Safe Minds in 2001, the authors seek to determine the levels of mercury
that could be expected upon hair analysis, based upon the amounts of
mercury in vaccines routinely given to infants and children.(12). The
paper predicts, based upon a proven model, that giving children all the
usual vaccinations, using thimerosal containing vaccines would result in a
hair concentration of greater than 1ppm (parts per million) of mercury for
up to 365 days with various peaks during that period.


Fundamental flaw here. Hair is one of the major ways in which mercury
is expelled form the body (along with urination). As such you would
expect to see higher mercury concentrations in the hair then elsewhere
in the body. To be accurate they should have modeled blood
concentrations, or better yet, neurological tissue concentrations. But
of course they didn't do this, as the CSM is a well know anti-vaccine
group, and they wanted to twist data to fit their political agenda.

Also, they never did any experiments; they never actually measured
mercury levels in the hair of children! So we don't even know if their
model is correct:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

Of course, others did measure hair and blood mercury levels and found
that they were within safe limits, and was rapidly excreted in poop:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12480426&query_hl=50&itool=pubmed_docsum

In "retaliation" SafeMinds measured hair mercury levels, and endedup
having to to undercut their first study, and admit:

"Hair excretion patterns among autistic infants were significantly
reduced relative to control. These data cast doubt on the efficacy of
traditional hair analysis as a measure of total mercury exposure in a
subset of the population".


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12933322&query_hl=50&itool=pubmed_docsum

Or, in other words, their method did not work. Oops!


Quote:
1ppm is the safe
limit set by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Research at the
UCLA Medical Center in California has also shown that Thimerosal (when
bound to human albumin protein) triggers an immune system reaction in
autistic children, resulting in the production of antibodies (17). This
indicates a possible autoimmune reaction as the immune system could react
against any of the child's own tissues that happen to have Thimerosal
bound to them.


This is called a hapten-carrier effect. Reactions to these are usually
relatively benign; poison-ivy reaction being an example of this effect
(itchiness, rash). Another thing that this article fails to point out
is that even if this was a detrimental reaction the amount of time in
which it could occur would be highly limited. Thimerosal breaks down
rapidly in the body, so the period of reaction would be short. It would
also be limited predominantly to the injection site. Lastly, your body
is well designed to limit damage to itself through these types of
reactions - each and every one of us has self-reacting antibodies in our
blood, including antibodies against our brains, and yet we're all fine.


Quote:
A paper published in March 2006 in Environmental Health Perspectives would
seem to shed more light on the mechanisms by which thimerosal can damage a
childs health. Researchers at University of California, Davis, have found
that in mice at least, thimerosal can disrupt the immune system.


Can't seem to find it. Here's the contents page for the specific issue
of "Environmental Health Perspectives" which this article claims carries
the paper:
http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2006/114-3/toc.html

I can't find it.

That's because this "article" is in error - the report was published in
July 2006. Guess accuracy doesn't matter much when you're used to lying...

http://www.ehponline.org/members/2006/8881/8881.html

Quote:
This
large, well funded study


Doesn't mean its good science. Einsteins noble-prize winning work was
done while he worked in a patent office with no funding what-so-ever.
But having read this article I can say that their methods are robust.
This is my area of expertise - I too do immunological research, but
their findings aren't what Dr Boyd would make it out to be...

If I had to make one critisim of this study, it was the stimuli they
looked at. Activating dendritic cells (DC's) with ATP isn't exactly an
accurate model of what happens in the body. It would have been much
better had an actual vaccine adjuvent been used, or a more classical
immune activator like bacterial LPS.

Anyhow, the first thing worth pointing out is that the very low
concentrations of thimerisal that these cells respond to are only seen
at the injection site. 100nM may not sound like a lot; but my
back-of-the-napkin calculation shows that the average injection needs
only to diffuse through about 10ml of tissue to drop the concentration
down to this point. This would limit the effect to the DC's in the area
of the injection. To put this into context, the average male human body
has a volume of ~75,000ml. A newborn baby has a volume of ~4,000ml.

A second point worth making is that dendritic cells (DC's) are very
specific in picking things up; they strictly limit themselves to picking
up things in their local environment, and go through great lengths to
not pick up antigens once they begin to migrate towards the lymphatics.
As such, it's hard to see how a DC in your arm could encounter
antigens which would affect the brain.

Probably the most difficult result for Dr. Boyd is that thimerosol
actually inhibited DC-mediated inflammation. Unfortunately, the authors
didn't look at antigen presentation, or the cells ability to activate
T-cells (both of which would have given us a clearer idea of what this
does to the immune system). But based on the decreased IL-6 production,
thimerisal should be inhibiting immune responses. This is the opposite
of the immune findings in autistic children where hyperactivity, in
particular the overproduction of inflammatory cytokines, is seen.

In other words autism = increased IL-6 (and other cytokines), thimerosal
= decreased IL-6 (and possibly other cytokines).


Quote:
Autistic children often show signs of immunological dysfunction with
allergies, gut disorders and frequent infections being common.


All a result of the exact opposite imbalance induced by thimerisal in
these DC's. See my initial links for more on this...


Quote:
Of course, mercury is not the only heavy metal that can cause health
problems and vaccinations are not the only source of exposure to mercury.
Other possible sources of heavy metal exposure are contaminated food and
water supplies. Fish is particularly associated with contamination as
oceanic pollution becomes more concentrated as it moves up the food chain
to predatory fish..

A very, very true statement. Fish is a far greater mercury risk factor
then is vaccination. Both in the context of dose, as well as in the
context of toxicity - fish tend to have methyl mercury; much more toxic
then the ethyl mercury found in vaccines.

That said, even the high doses of mercury in fish - and remember, that's
high doses of a form of mercury known to be neurotoxic, has absolutely
no link with neurological disorders what-so-ever:

http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2006/8886/letter.html

Bryan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bryan,
Thanks for taking the time and effort needed to make your post. I just
hope that the scientists are able to develop a replacement for thimerosal
that works as well as thimerosal--that is NOT a known poison and causes NO
side effects. You explained your case very well. I do believe that most
children and adults can metabolize low levels of mercury with NO problems.
However, I also believe that some children and adults can NOT metabolize
mercury and as a result it causes major medical problems. More research is
needed to determine the cause of autism. It may or may not be related to
mercury so for that reason, I don't believe that it should be used in
vaccines. Why take the chance? If mercury is the cause of autism, some
children would still develop autism since it's in fish.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines has no relationship to autism Reply with quote

Bryan Heit wrote:
Quote:
All BS, and you know it. There's a paper in the wings which'll
eliminate any doubt about the autism-vaccine link; as in there is no link:

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=bc8253e7-ec6f-4bbd-a01c-5295b731d3f9&k=7417


Comes out in this journal, probably in the next 2-3 weeks:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/

That would be by Dr. Eric Fombonne. Wikipedia:

Eric Fombonne
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Eric Fombonne, MD, FRCP, (b. 1954, Paris, France) is a professor of
psychiatry and an epidemiologist. Dr. Fombonne directs the child
psychiatry division at McGill University in Canada and the psychiatry
department at the Montreal Children’s Hospital, where he played a key
role in the launch of its autism clinic. Fombonne is also the Canada
Research Chair in child psychiatry. His research focuses on
epidemiological investigations of childhood mental illness and related
risk factors, with a particular focus on the epidemiology of autism.

Dr. Fombonne is a permanent member of a National Institute of Mental
Health (NIMH) study section and has been appointed to a special National
Institute of Health (NIH) advisory board for autism research programs.
In October, 2002 he became the president of the Association of Child and
Adolescent Psychiatry of Canada (APCAPC).

Research endeavors
Prior to his arrival in Canada, Fombonne was a researcher at the
Institute of Psychiatry, King's College in London, United Kingdom, where
he also worked as a child and adolescent psychiatrist at Maudsley
Hospital. While there, he and his colleagues were credited with
demonstrating that there is no epidemiological evidence suggesting a
link between the MMR vaccine with autism, as postulated by other
researchers including Dr. Andrew Wakefield. In a New Scientist article
he is quoted as having said "Trying to link this with MMR is complete
nonsense."

One of the major studies conducted by Fombonne examined depression,
which linked alcohol abuse to increased suicidal tendencies in boys,
using data on 6,000 subjects.

At McGill University, Fombonne has consolidated the Autism Spectrum
Disorder program in Montreal since his appointment there in 2001. He
currently heads an autism research program directed at evaluating
environmental risk factors, such as vaccines, and investigating genetic
risks associated with the heritability of autism. He has also been
involved in molecular genetic studies of clinical depression, and in
long-term outcome studies of child and adolescent depression.

Autism epidemic
Fombonne has reported that the prevalence of autism is 68 per 10,000, or
one in 147.

He has often been cited for representing the apparent rise in cases was
due to wider recognition of the condition, asserting that claims of an
'autism epidemic' are unfounded.[1] In 2001, he told the BBC "That rates
in recent surveys are substantially higher than 30 years ago merely
reflects the adoption of a much broader concept of autism, a recognition
of autism among normally intelligent subjects and an improved
identification of persons with autism."

[edit]
Quote
"Does this mean there is an epidemic of PDD? Not at all. We believe the
high rates we are seeing are the result of a combination of factors.
With improved recognition of the symptoms, diagnosis of PDD is now being
made more frequently and at an earlier age, thus increasing the number
of children being diagnosed. More rigorous methods used in recent
surveys have also improved our ability to find cases of PDD. The lower
rates found in two of the most recent studies, for instance, most
certainly reflect less sensitive case finding approaches."[2] Eric Fombonne
[edit]
Published works
Fombonne has written over 130 scientific reports in peer reviewed
journals and 25 book chapters. He was associate editor of the Journal of
Autism and Developmental Disorders from 1994 to 2003.

He is one of Canada's most respected researchers.
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Bryan Heit
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

HCN wrote:
Quote:
"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@nospamucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:e8kemg$r13$1@news.ucalgary.ca...

All BS, and you know it. There's a paper in the wings which'll eliminate
any doubt about the autism-vaccine link; as in there is no link:

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=bc8253e7-ec6f-4bbd-a01c-5295b731d3f9&k=7417

Comes out in this journal, probably in the next 2-3 weeks:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/


...

Is this it?
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139?

Yep. Sure is.

Amazing how one table and two little graphs can completely destroy a
myth. To quote:

"Third, our findings clearly failed to detect any relationship between
thimerosal exposure and rates of PDDs."

Figure 2 is particularly interesting - rates of autism go up AFTER
thimerasol is removed from vaccines.

Bryan
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Bryan Heit
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

Jan Drew wrote:
Quote:
There's a paper in the wings which'll

eliminate any doubt about the autism-vaccine link; as in there is no link:

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=bc8253e7-ec6f-4bbd-a01c-5295b731d3f9&k=7417


Eric Fombonne AMA.


Here's the actual paper. Now please tell us, how is it that no children
received thimerisal containing vaccines after 1996, no ethyl mercury was
detected in these children, and yet the rates of autism went UP
slightly? How exactly is that proof that thimerisal causes autism?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139



Quote:
As for the safety, it is well established:


Established by whom??


Miscellaneous medical researchers and doctors around the world.


Quote:

[ ]

There are hundreds more of these out there, showing it s safe. What do
you have to prove it's dangerous? Nothing more then adds for products
which supposedly remove the mercury.

I have science, you have adds. I

wonder who's more likely to be right. . .


Liar.

I have posted research.


Then re-post it for all of us to see. All I've seen from you are pages
from your little pet company. Nothing published in a peer-reviewed
scientific or medical journal.


Quote:
Get lost. Liar. This is misc.health.alternative.

Ohh, I'm afraid now. Jan's got her panties in a knot and has told be to
get lost! And once again she's demonstrated just how out of it she is -
I'm not reading or posting to her messages in misc.health.alternative;
I'm seeing them in sci.med.immunology, and sci.med. It's ironic that
she thinks it's OK for her to spread her hate and lies to these
scientific groups, but then complains when we fire back.

Jan & John, I'll make you a deal; you limit your posts to your little
alternative medicine newsgroup, and I'll limit mine to the scientific
ones. You agree to that and you never need read my replies again.
Otherwise, you can go screw yourself.

Bryan
Back to top
Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

Bryan Heit wrote:
Quote:
HCN wrote:
"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@nospamucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:e8kemg$r13$1@news.ucalgary.ca...

All BS, and you know it. There's a paper in the wings which'll
eliminate any doubt about the autism-vaccine link; as in there is no
link:

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=bc8253e7-ec6f-4bbd-a01c-5295b731d3f9&k=7417


Comes out in this journal, probably in the next 2-3 weeks:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/


...

Is this it?
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139?

Yep. Sure is.

Amazing how one table and two little graphs can completely destroy a
myth. To quote:

"Third, our findings clearly failed to detect any relationship between
thimerosal exposure and rates of PDDs."

Figure 2 is particularly interesting - rates of autism go up AFTER
thimerasol is removed from vaccines.

Bryan, do not understate the methodology. They may have reported only
one table and two little graphs, but they analyzed the numbers
extensively using many methods.

Also, remember that Mrs. Dr. Fombonne is a well recognized
epidemiologist on her own merits.

The authors implications:

There are several important implications of this study.

First, our study adds additional evidence deriving from a large,
population-based survey that PDDs are one of the most common
developmental disorders in young children. With a prevalence of 0.6% to
0.7%, the service implications are straightforward.

Second, as in other recent studies, factors such as broadening of
diagnostic criteria, improved awareness about the disorder, changes in
official social and educational policies, and improved access to
services are certainly the primary driving force underlying the
increasing prevalence figures.7 Yet, the possibility that a real change
in the incidence could have occurred as well cannot be definitely ruled
out from existing data.

Third, our findings clearly failed to detect any relationship between
thimerosal exposure and rates of PDDs. These findings concur with those
from other similar ecological investigations34, 35 and of more
controlled epidemiological studies.25, 38 Previous negative studies,
especially those conducted in European countries, have sometimes been
criticized on the account that either the rates of PDDs were not as high
as those in North America, that the cumulative exposure to thimerosal
was much lower than that attained in the United States in the 1990s, or
both. This study avoids both pitfalls and is, therefore, very
informative for the North American public. In addition, the rate of
exposure varied from nil to very high levels of vaccine-derived
ethylmercury, allowing us to test for effects along the full range of
exposure and to detect possible threshold effects as well. All of the
results were negative.

Fourth, as in previous studies,25 no effect of MMR vaccine could be
detected on the risk of PDD. The trends went in opposite directions,
making it unlikely that even small effects applying to a small subset of
children would exist. Furthermore, this study added new evidence
suggesting that the 2-MMR dose schedule before age 2 years also had no
impact on rates of PDD.

Fifth, parents of children with PDD and the general public should be
made aware of the consistency of negative studies on the 2 hypotheses
linking risk of autism and immunizations. Children with autism and their
younger unaffected siblings should be vaccinated. Unvaccinated children
are at much higher risk of contracting measles and suffering from its
sometimes severe or lethal complications.71 There is no evidence for an
epidemiological association between ethylmercury and autism and *no
scientific basis for using chelation therapies, which can be dangerous.*
Decreasing MMR uptake in the British isles has led to more frequent
measles outbreaks of greater magnitude27 and to children's deaths.72

*Findings of negative studies are, indeed, more difficult to convey,
but, here, the evidence lies in the striking convergence of studies
accumulated by different groups, with different designs and in different
places.*

(Emphasis mine)

IOW, this study confirms the previous studies using a different
population with different (higher) exposures.

The only thing that the anti-vac liars can do is to attack the authors.

"Dr Fombonne's salary support is partially funded through the Canada
Research Chair Canadian Institutes for Health Research (to Dr Fombonne
and McGill University).

[...]

In the United Kingdom, Dr Fombonne has provided advice on the
epidemiology and clinical aspects of autism to scientists advising
parents, to vaccine manufacturers, and to several government committees
between 1998 and 2001. Since June 2004, Dr Fombonne has been an expert
witness for vaccine manufacturers in US thimerosal litigation. None of
his research has ever been funded by the industry."
Back to top
Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

Bryan Heit wrote:
Quote:
Jan Drew wrote:
There's a paper in the wings which'll

eliminate any doubt about the autism-vaccine link; as in there is no
link:

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=bc8253e7-ec6f-4bbd-a01c-5295b731d3f9&k=7417



Eric Fombonne AMA.


Here's the actual paper. Now please tell us, how is it that no children
received thimerisal containing vaccines after 1996, no ethyl mercury was
detected in these children, and yet the rates of autism went UP
slightly? How exactly is that proof that thimerisal causes autism?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139



As for the safety, it is well established:


Established by whom??


Miscellaneous medical researchers and doctors around the world.



[ ]

There are hundreds more of these out there, showing it s safe. What
do you have to prove it's dangerous? Nothing more then adds for
products which supposedly remove the mercury.

I have science, you have adds. I

wonder who's more likely to be right. . .


Liar.

I have posted research.


Then re-post it for all of us to see. All I've seen from you are pages
from your little pet company. Nothing published in a peer-reviewed
scientific or medical journal.


Get lost. Liar. This is misc.health.alternative.

Ohh, I'm afraid now. Jan's got her panties in a knot and has told be to
get lost! And once again she's demonstrated just how out of it she is -
I'm not reading or posting to her messages in misc.health.alternative;
I'm seeing them in sci.med.immunology, and sci.med. It's ironic that
she thinks it's OK for her to spread her hate and lies to these
scientific groups, but then complains when we fire back.

Jan & John, I'll make you a deal; you limit your posts to your little
alternative medicine newsgroup, and I'll limit mine to the scientific
ones.

That would be a loss to mha.

You agree to that and you never need read my replies again.
Quote:
Otherwise, you can go screw yourself.

Bryan
Back to top
Jason
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1119

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

Here's the actual paper. Now please tell us, how is it that no children
received thimerisal containing vaccines after 1996, no ethyl mercury was
detected in these children, and yet the rates of autism went UP
slightly? How exactly is that proof that thimerisal causes autism?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hello,
If mercury (regardless of the type) is the cause of autism, children would
continue to develop autism even if thimerosal was NEVER used in any
vaccines.
The reason is that mercury is found in wood preservatives, paints, fungicides,
cosmetics, foods, seeds and in contaminated fish. The mercury castastrophe
in Minamata Bay, Japan, involved ingestion of methylmercury-contaminated
fish--it led to severe neurologic defects.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to top
Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

Jason Johnson wrote:
Quote:
Here's the actual paper. Now please tell us, how is it that no children
received thimerisal containing vaccines after 1996, no ethyl mercury was
detected in these children, and yet the rates of autism went UP
slightly? How exactly is that proof that thimerisal causes autism?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hello,
If mercury (regardless of the type) is the cause of autism, children would
continue to develop autism even if thimerosal was NEVER used in any
vaccines.

If you make that assumption, i.e. mercury exposure causes autism, and
the exposure went DOWN after removal from Thimerosal, you should see a
DECREASE or leveling of the rates. The paper shows that the rates
continued to rise, thus showing that mercury exposure does not cause or
affect the incidence of autism.

If you are still unclear on this point, let me know, and I will spell it
out for you.

Quote:
The reason is that mercury is found in wood preservatives, paints, fungicides,
cosmetics, foods, seeds and in contaminated fish. The mercury castastrophe
in Minamata Bay, Japan, involved ingestion of methylmercury-contaminated
fish--it led to severe neurologic defects.

It was preordained that you would bring that up.
Back to top
Jason
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1119

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

In article <qdxrg.33$gt6.0@fe12.lga>, Mark Probert
<markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote:

Jason Johnson wrote:
Quote:
Here's the actual paper. Now please tell us, how is it that no children
received thimerisal containing vaccines after 1996, no ethyl mercury was
detected in these children, and yet the rates of autism went UP
slightly? How exactly is that proof that thimerisal causes autism?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hello,
If mercury (regardless of the type) is the cause of autism, children would
continue to develop autism even if thimerosal was NEVER used in any
vaccines.

If you make that assumption, i.e. mercury exposure causes autism, and
the exposure went DOWN after removal from Thimerosal, you should see a
DECREASE or leveling of the rates. The paper shows that the rates
continued to rise, thus showing that mercury exposure does not cause or
affect the incidence of autism.

If you are still unclear on this point, let me know, and I will spell it
out for you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mark,
You don't need to spell it out--I understand your point. You know that you
can prove almost anything you wish to prove with statistics. Let's assume
that fish now contain higher levels of mercury than ever before. That
would mean that the rates of autism would be higher in 2015 even if no
vaccines contained in thimerosal when those children that developed autism
were born. Did the paper even mention the issue of mercury levels in fish?
In other words, there are other factors (eg mercury levels in fish)
involved that the paper did not mention. Do you see my point? The type of
mercury in fish is even more dangerous
than the type of mercury in thimerosal--but you already knew that.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to top
Bryan Heit
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

Jason Johnson wrote:
Quote:
Here's the actual paper. Now please tell us, how is it that no children
received thimerisal containing vaccines after 1996, no ethyl mercury was
detected in these children, and yet the rates of autism went UP
slightly? How exactly is that proof that thimerisal causes autism?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hello,
If mercury (regardless of the type) is the cause of autism, children would
continue to develop autism even if thimerosal was NEVER used in any
vaccines.


True, but removal of the thimerosal from vaccines should reduce the
rates of autism as there would be less overall mercury exposure. So if
autism were a factor we would expect to see, at the very least, a small
drop in the cases of autism. rather, a modest increase was seen.


Quote:
The reason is that mercury is found in wood preservatives, paints, fungicides,
cosmetics, foods, seeds and in contaminated fish. The mercury castastrophe
in Minamata Bay, Japan, involved ingestion of methylmercury-contaminated
fish--it led to severe neurologic defects.

Yes, but to account for the data from this paper the amount of mercury
in the environment would have had to increase such that kids were now
being exposed to more mercury then before. As John and Jan like to
frequently remind us, kids often receive high doses of mercury during
vaccination courses. As such it is very difficult to see how there
could have been an equivalent increase in environmental mercury;
especially without such an increase being noticed. Certantly, none of
Canada's or Quebec environmental and health testing departments noted
such an increase.

Bryan
Back to top
Bryan Heit
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

Mark Probert wrote:
Quote:
Bryan Heit wrote:

HCN wrote:

"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@nospamucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:e8kemg$r13$1@news.ucalgary.ca...

All BS, and you know it. There's a paper in the wings which'll
eliminate any doubt about the autism-vaccine link; as in there is no
link:

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=bc8253e7-ec6f-4bbd-a01c-5295b731d3f9&k=7417


Comes out in this journal, probably in the next 2-3 weeks:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/


...

Is this it?
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139?


Yep. Sure is.

Amazing how one table and two little graphs can completely destroy a
myth. To quote:

"Third, our findings clearly failed to detect any relationship between
thimerosal exposure and rates of PDDs."

Figure 2 is particularly interesting - rates of autism go up AFTER
thimerasol is removed from vaccines.


Bryan, do not understate the methodology. They may have reported only
one table and two little graphs, but they analyzed the numbers
extensively using many methods.

I never meant to disparage the authors results. I am well aware of
their reputation in the autism field; in fact, I've worked quite closely
with a member of their research group.

I was simply pointing out, sarcastically, that in a mere 3 figures they
have completely obliterated any concept of autism being linked to
mercury in vaccines. 3 figures, and a few pages of text. And it takes
down all of John and Jan's hundreds of pages of material.

As for the methodology, it is quite simple, but that is often the best
kind. You've got a group of kids from a time when there was mercury in
their vaccines, and a group from a time when there wasn't mercury.
Everything else about them is the same - same environment, immunization
schedule, population, etc. About as robust a group as you can get. And
the results from that - no link.

Pretty damming for the anti-vax crowd...

Bryan
Back to top
Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

Jason Johnson wrote:
Quote:
In article <qdxrg.33$gt6.0@fe12.lga>, Mark Probert
markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote:

Jason Johnson wrote:
Here's the actual paper. Now please tell us, how is it that no children
received thimerisal containing vaccines after 1996, no ethyl mercury was
detected in these children, and yet the rates of autism went UP
slightly? How exactly is that proof that thimerisal causes autism?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hello,
If mercury (regardless of the type) is the cause of autism, children would
continue to develop autism even if thimerosal was NEVER used in any
vaccines.

If you make that assumption, i.e. mercury exposure causes autism, and
the exposure went DOWN after removal from Thimerosal, you should see a
DECREASE or leveling of the rates. The paper shows that the rates
continued to rise, thus showing that mercury exposure does not cause or
affect the incidence of autism.

If you are still unclear on this point, let me know, and I will spell it
out for you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mark,
You don't need to spell it out--I understand your point. You know that you
can prove almost anything you wish to prove with statistics.

That is one of the standard dodges used by those who do not understand
valid and correct use of statistics.

Let's assume
Quote:
that fish now contain higher levels of mercury than ever before.

Why? We have been REDUCING the levels of Mercury in pollution for many
years. I would assume that they are LESS, if anything.

That
Quote:
would mean that the rates of autism would be higher in 2015 even if no
vaccines contained in thimerosal when those children that developed autism
were born.

Only if you assume that there is a link. What you are doing is called
circular reasoning.

Quote:
Did the paper even mention the issue of mercury levels in fish?

Why would it?

Quote:
In other words, there are other factors (eg mercury levels in fish)
involved that the paper did not mention. Do you see my point? The type of
mercury in fish is even more dangerous
than the type of mercury in thimerosal--but you already knew that.

True, that is one of the many things that I already knew. I also already
knew that there is no link between autism and mercury. Period.


Quote:
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to top
Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

Bryan Heit wrote:
Quote:
Mark Probert wrote:
Bryan Heit wrote:

HCN wrote:

"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@nospamucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:e8kemg$r13$1@news.ucalgary.ca...

All BS, and you know it. There's a paper in the wings which'll
eliminate any doubt about the autism-vaccine link; as in there is
no link:

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=bc8253e7-ec6f-4bbd-a01c-5295b731d3f9&k=7417


Comes out in this journal, probably in the next 2-3 weeks:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/


...

Is this it?
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139?


Yep. Sure is.

Amazing how one table and two little graphs can completely destroy a
myth. To quote:

"Third, our findings clearly failed to detect any relationship
between thimerosal exposure and rates of PDDs."

Figure 2 is particularly interesting - rates of autism go up AFTER
thimerasol is removed from vaccines.


Bryan, do not understate the methodology. They may have reported only
one table and two little graphs, but they analyzed the numbers
extensively using many methods.

I never meant to disparage the authors results. I am well aware of
their reputation in the autism field; in fact, I've worked quite closely
with a member of their research group.

I was simply pointing out, sarcastically, that in a mere 3 figures they
have completely obliterated any concept of autism being linked to
mercury in vaccines. 3 figures, and a few pages of text. And it takes
down all of John and Jan's hundreds of pages of material.

As for the methodology, it is quite simple, but that is often the best
kind. You've got a group of kids from a time when there was mercury in
their vaccines, and a group from a time when there wasn't mercury.
Everything else about them is the same - same environment, immunization
schedule, population, etc. About as robust a group as you can get. And
the results from that - no link.

Pretty damming for the anti-vax crowd...

Does Fombonne wear asbestos underwear? That seems to be where the
anti-vac liars are going.

It parallels the findings earlier this year that there is no autism
epidemic, which is something that Fombonne has been saying for years (he
agrees with me, and you know what that means.... )
Back to top
Jason
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1119

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Thimerosal in vaccines INCREASES incidence of autism Reply with quote

Quote:

Hello,
If mercury (regardless of the type) is the cause of autism, children would
continue to develop autism even if thimerosal was NEVER used in any
vaccines.


True, but removal of the thimerosal from vaccines should reduce the
rates of autism as there would be less overall mercury exposure. So if
autism were a factor we would expect to see, at the very least, a small
drop in the cases of autism. rather, a modest increase was seen.


Quote:
The reason is that mercury is found in wood preservatives, paints,
fungicides,
cosmetics, foods, seeds and in contaminated fish. The mercury castastrophe
in Minamata Bay, Japan, involved ingestion of methylmercury-contaminated
fish--it led to severe neurologic defects.

Yes, but to account for the data from this paper the amount of mercury
in the environment would have had to increase such that kids were now
being exposed to more mercury then before. As John and Jan like to
frequently remind us, kids often receive high doses of mercury during
vaccination courses. As such it is very difficult to see how there
could have been an equivalent increase in environmental mercury;
especially without such an increase being noticed. Certantly, none of
Canada's or Quebec environmental and health testing departments noted
such an increase.

Bryan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bryan,
Good points, however, I seem to recall reading articles indicating that
the amount of mercury in the environment is going higher every year. If
that is
true, don't you agree that it would have an effect on the statistics that
you mentioned in your recent posts.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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