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Tony Bad
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 517
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 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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"rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150791330.756882.274540@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
I'm waiting for some fine fellow to step forward and explain to me why
a crown costs $1000.
ric
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Well, if that fine fellow ever steps up, ask him if he can explain why my
car dealer charges $115/hour for labor, or why my cable bill is closing in
on $100. If he can answer those, I have more.
Keep me posted!
T |
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riclanders@gmail.com
medicine forum addict
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:37 am Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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Tony Bad wrote:
| Quote: | "rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150791330.756882.274540@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
I'm waiting for some fine fellow to step forward and explain to me why
a crown costs $1000.
ric
Well, if that fine fellow ever steps up, ask him if he can explain why my
car dealer charges $115/hour for labor, or why my cable bill is closing in
on $100. If he can answer those, I have more.
Keep me posted!
T
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Look. One of the reasons half the people you see are walking around
with bad smiles is because they can't afford dental prices. By age 40,
most people need serious dental work. I'm talking four unit bridges and
things like that. A four unit bridge can go as high as $4000. This
means if a person doesn't have insurance, he's looking at spending two
months take home pay to get his teeth fixed.
Meanwhile, the typical dentist takes home $4000 in week.
Why couldn't the dentist's take home pay be $2000 a week? Sure, he'd
have to put off the Mercedes for a while and the 1.5 million dollar
home wouldn't come till the end of his career, but if he managed to eke
out an existence on $2000 a week by dropping his prices 50%, wouldn't
that mean more people would get their teeth fixed?
ricland |
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YouGoFirst
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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"rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150889843.460270.181120@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Tony Bad wrote:
"rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150791330.756882.274540@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
I'm waiting for some fine fellow to step forward and explain to me why
a crown costs $1000.
ric
Well, if that fine fellow ever steps up, ask him if he can explain why my
car dealer charges $115/hour for labor, or why my cable bill is closing
in
on $100. If he can answer those, I have more.
Keep me posted!
T
Look. One of the reasons half the people you see are walking around
with bad smiles is because they can't afford dental prices. By age 40,
most people need serious dental work. I'm talking four unit bridges and
things like that. A four unit bridge can go as high as $4000. This
means if a person doesn't have insurance, he's looking at spending two
months take home pay to get his teeth fixed.
Meanwhile, the typical dentist takes home $4000 in week.
Why couldn't the dentist's take home pay be $2000 a week? Sure, he'd
have to put off the Mercedes for a while and the 1.5 million dollar
home wouldn't come till the end of his career, but if he managed to eke
out an existence on $2000 a week by dropping his prices 50%, wouldn't
that mean more people would get their teeth fixed?
ricland
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Because we don't live in a Socialist country.
The simple answer is supply and demand. This applies to dentists and to
fast food workers. For a given population there few people qualified to be
dentists, but a lot of people qualified to be fast food workers. Since a
dentist is a rare commodity they can charge more per hour to work than a
person flipping burgers. Just think about the quality of dental care you
would get if there were as many dentists as people flipping burgers. I can
hear it now "Welcome to McDental, would you like to supersize your
anesthetic?"
While dropping the price would help more people to go to the dentist, you
still have a lot of people that wouldn't go.
Also, look at what people say about dental care in the UK, where a lot of
that work is paid for by the government. |
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Tony Bad
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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"rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150889843.460270.181120@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Look. One of the reasons half the people you see are walking around
with bad smiles is because they can't afford dental prices. By age 40,
most people need serious dental work. I'm talking four unit bridges and
things like that. A four unit bridge can go as high as $4000. This
means if a person doesn't have insurance, he's looking at spending two
months take home pay to get his teeth fixed.
Meanwhile, the typical dentist takes home $4000 in week.
Why couldn't the dentist's take home pay be $2000 a week? Sure, he'd
have to put off the Mercedes for a while and the 1.5 million dollar
home wouldn't come till the end of his career, but if he managed to eke
out an existence on $2000 a week by dropping his prices 50%, wouldn't
that mean more people would get their teeth fixed?
ricland
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Cool plan...I'm just wondering how you plan to get the dental supply house,
my dental lab, the electric company, water company, telephone company,
postal service, state licensing board, outdated magazine subscription
service, office supply store, my assistant, my hygienist and everyone else
who makes up my overhead to also accept this 50% decrease?
You see, the average dental office has an overhead that is 50% or higher. If
I drop my fees in half, unless everyone else also drops their charges by the
same 50% I am working for free.
Seems like you have given this a lot of thought...let me know when you iron
out the details.
T |
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carabelli
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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"Tony Bad" <spamspamspam@bakedbeans.spam> wrote in message
news:_5gmg.10$uZ5.3@fe12.lga...
| Quote: |
"rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150889843.460270.181120@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Look. One of the reasons half the people you see are walking around
with bad smiles is because they can't afford dental prices. By age 40,
most people need serious dental work. I'm talking four unit bridges and
things like that. A four unit bridge can go as high as $4000. This
means if a person doesn't have insurance, he's looking at spending two
months take home pay to get his teeth fixed.
Meanwhile, the typical dentist takes home $4000 in week.
Why couldn't the dentist's take home pay be $2000 a week? Sure, he'd
have to put off the Mercedes for a while and the 1.5 million dollar
home wouldn't come till the end of his career, but if he managed to eke
out an existence on $2000 a week by dropping his prices 50%, wouldn't
that mean more people would get their teeth fixed?
ricland
Cool plan...I'm just wondering how you plan to get the dental supply
house,
my dental lab, the electric company, water company, telephone company,
postal service, state licensing board, outdated magazine subscription
service, office supply store, my assistant, my hygienist and everyone else
who makes up my overhead to also accept this 50% decrease?
You see, the average dental office has an overhead that is 50% or higher.
If
I drop my fees in half, unless everyone else also drops their charges by
the
same 50% I am working for free.
Seems like you have given this a lot of thought...let me know when you
iron
out the details.
T
Takes less than that to go broke. |
Average general dentistry overhead is around 70%
Gross $400,000
Overhead $280,000
Profit 120,000
Cut rates 30%
Gross $280,000
Overhead - guess what? - stays the same $280,000
Profit Nada
Cut rates 50%
Gross $200,000
Overhead $280,000
Profit - go find a second job to subsidize the dental office -$80,000 |
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Dr.Braces
medicine forum addict
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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most dental schools are way underfunded! I disagree, this is totally wrong.
On 2006-06-18 06:13:49 -0700, "rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> said:
| Quote: | Today even dental schools
which certainly don't need the money, o |
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Tony Bad
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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"carabelli" <redslaz3@worldnet.att.not> wrote in message
news:9ggmg.227703$Fs1.67597@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
| Quote: |
Takes less than that to go broke.
Average general dentistry overhead is around 70%
Gross $400,000
Overhead $280,000
Profit 120,000
Cut rates 30%
Gross $280,000
Overhead - guess what? - stays the same $280,000
Profit Nada
Cut rates 50%
Gross $200,000
Overhead $280,000
Profit - go find a second job to subsidize the dental office -$80,000
|
You are very correct...I just used numbers that were easier to work with for
our deep thinking friend.
Hope you have been well sir...I have lost track of the regular band of merry
makers...good to see your name here.
T |
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riclanders@gmail.com
medicine forum addict
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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Tony Bad wrote:
| Quote: | "rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150889843.460270.181120@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Look. One of the reasons half the people you see are walking around
with bad smiles is because they can't afford dental prices. By age 40,
most people need serious dental work. I'm talking four unit bridges and
things like that. A four unit bridge can go as high as $4000. This
means if a person doesn't have insurance, he's looking at spending two
months take home pay to get his teeth fixed.
Meanwhile, the typical dentist takes home $4000 in week.
Why couldn't the dentist's take home pay be $2000 a week? Sure, he'd
have to put off the Mercedes for a while and the 1.5 million dollar
home wouldn't come till the end of his career, but if he managed to eke
out an existence on $2000 a week by dropping his prices 50%, wouldn't
that mean more people would get their teeth fixed?
ricland
Cool plan...I'm just wondering how you plan to get the dental supply house,
my dental lab, the electric company, water company, telephone company,
postal service, state licensing board, outdated magazine subscription
service, office supply store, my assistant, my hygienist and everyone else
who makes up my overhead to also accept this 50% decrease?
You see, the average dental office has an overhead that is 50% or higher. If
I drop my fees in half, unless everyone else also drops their charges by the
same 50% I am working for free.
Seems like you have given this a lot of thought...let me know when you iron
out the details.
T
|
Both you and "YouGoFirst" raised excellent points which will be
addressed forthwith. Of course neither your nor YouGoFirst wrote
anything particularly original or interesting, but that is another
matter to be addressed at another time.
YouGoFirst described how supply and demand works. He presented a
textbook case of what happens when supply outstrips demand. But his
example has no application here since supply and demand have little to
do with dentals prices as I will show.
You, Tony, approached the question from the other direction -- fixed
costs determine the high prices dentists charge -- that is, dentists
would love to stop squeezing their patients, but can't because people
are squeezing them.
This argument is not as easily dismissed. Yes, dental labs sock it to
you, as do suppliers, and even the lowly dental hygienist thinks she
should share your plunder. A vicious cycle, no doubt about it, but is
it really as simple as that, Tony? Also, does it really absolve you --
the guy at the top who started squeezing first?
Thirty---years ago Sterling Optical started charging 10 to 20 times
the price of ordinary eye-glass frames. Those reading glasses you see
on the rack at drug stores that retail for $5 are the identical frames
Sterling (and today everybody else) sells for $125.
It was a bold move and everyone thought Sterling would price itself out
of business, but this did not happen. Instead, Sterling became the
dominant optical retailer in the country, and the little guy who was
charging a mere five bucks for his frames went under.
Adam Smith must have turned cartwheels in his grave upon hearing this.
It didn't make sense. It took all of the wisdom he had piled into his
Economics Bible "The Wealth of Nations" and stood it on its head.
Of course Smith knew nothing of today's insurance companies or
high-powered industry lobbying group of which I'll discuss in a moment.
But back to the optical business: in short time all the little guys
were gone to be replaced by Sterling Optical or Sterling Optical
clones. Pricing was identical in each. Pricing has remained identical
in each for the past 25 years. Now, were Adam Smith here, he would say
this is not possible, that the iron law of capitalism would drive one
of these places to lower their prices and this would be the place the
huddled masses would go to buy their eye-glasses.
Nope.
One of the things Smith didn't fully understand is the power politics
have on the market place. In order to practice dentistry in the U.S.
you have to be a member of the club and there are two crucial things
the club does: (1) it makes sure dentists are qualified, (2) it makes
sure there are no impediments to squeezing the consumer as much as it
can.
to be continued... |
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Tony Bad
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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"rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151011600.192422.237770@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
You, Tony, approached the question from the other direction -- fixed
costs determine the high prices dentists charge -- that is, dentists
would love to stop squeezing their patients, but can't because people
are squeezing them.
This argument is not as easily dismissed. Yes, dental labs sock it to
you, as do suppliers, and even the lowly dental hygienist thinks she
should share your plunder. A vicious cycle, no doubt about it, but is
it really as simple as that, Tony? Also, does it really absolve you --
the guy at the top who started squeezing first?
|
I don't recall writing that dentists "would love to stop squeezing their
patients, but can't because people are squeezing them." Your comments
suggest you have some understanding of economics, so I shouldn't have to
clarify things for you. There are fixed costs and flexible costs. Profit is
always a flexible cost and depends on the desires and motives of the
individual. The intent of my comment was to show you that your simplistic
example of dropping charges 50% = a 50% reduction in dentist profit is
flawed. There are fixed costs associated with running a dental practice. If
the practice is even close to being well run, carving 50% out of that
overhead would be impossible. A 50% drop in fees would likely result in an
almost 100% drop in dentist income.
As for the "lowly hygienist" (your term, not mine), there aren't all that
many jobs that offer a high school grad with 2 years of additional schooling
an opportunity to make a darn nice income like hygienists make. In my neck
of the woods they command about $35 to $40/hr and are in short supply. There
are many recent dental school grads working in practices where they would be
happy to have a guaranteed salary like that! Shed no tears for the "lowly
hygienist".
Your comments about Adam Smith suggest you don't need me to explain this to
you, so I won't bother playing along any further.
Good luck in solving this economic concern of yours.
T |
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JPG
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 569
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:15 pm Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:56:28 GMT, "YouGoFirst"
<yougofirst@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150889843.460270.181120@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Tony Bad wrote:
"rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150791330.756882.274540@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
I'm waiting for some fine fellow to step forward and explain to me why
a crown costs $1000.
ric
Well, if that fine fellow ever steps up, ask him if he can explain why my
car dealer charges $115/hour for labor, or why my cable bill is closing
in
on $100. If he can answer those, I have more.
Keep me posted!
T
Look. One of the reasons half the people you see are walking around
with bad smiles is because they can't afford dental prices. By age 40,
most people need serious dental work. I'm talking four unit bridges and
things like that. A four unit bridge can go as high as $4000. This
means if a person doesn't have insurance, he's looking at spending two
months take home pay to get his teeth fixed.
Meanwhile, the typical dentist takes home $4000 in week.
Why couldn't the dentist's take home pay be $2000 a week? Sure, he'd
have to put off the Mercedes for a while and the 1.5 million dollar
home wouldn't come till the end of his career, but if he managed to eke
out an existence on $2000 a week by dropping his prices 50%, wouldn't
that mean more people would get their teeth fixed?
ricland
Because we don't live in a Socialist country.
The simple answer is supply and demand. This applies to dentists and to
fast food workers. For a given population there few people qualified to be
dentists, but a lot of people qualified to be fast food workers. Since a
dentist is a rare commodity they can charge more per hour to work than a
person flipping burgers. Just think about the quality of dental care you
would get if there were as many dentists as people flipping burgers. I can
hear it now "Welcome to McDental, would you like to supersize your
anesthetic?"
While dropping the price would help more people to go to the dentist, you
still have a lot of people that wouldn't go.
Also, look at what people say about dental care in the UK, where a lot of
that work is paid for by the government.
|
Well it isn't is it? Paid for by the government I mean, because the
dentists won't take the lower pay that the other guy talked about.
They want high pay, the highest they can get so they won't work at
government prices and we all have to pay them what they ask.
Ann |
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JimSocal
medicine forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:10 am Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:41 GMT, "YouGoFirst"
<yougofirst@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Move to San Diego.
ric
It is cheaper to just get some good dental insurance.
There is no such thing as good dental insurance. |
First of all it isn't "insurance", it is a pre-pay discounted plan".
Secondly, most of the dentists - not all - who participate in it are
either rip-off artists or incompetents.
I've had plenty of experience to back up my statements. |
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JimSocal
medicine forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:23 am Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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On 18 Jun 2006 06:13:49 -0700, "rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | First thing: They're all in it together. From coast to coast American
dentists have all signed-on to the religion of overcharging. And you
can forget about dental schools which were once a safe-haven for those
seeking reasonable dental fees -- no more. Today even dental schools
which certainly don't need the money, overcharge; possibly to get the
students in the right frame of mind before they graduate.
So what to do?
Here's what I recommend: Get all your dental work done overseas while
on vacation. For example, prices is Mexico City are 20%% -50% less and
the dental work is very good. If you're nervous about being treated by
a Mexican trained dentists, locate one who graduated from an American
school; they've got plenty of them.
And if you bring the kids, that $10,000 worth of dental work the family
needs can drop to $5000 to $2500.
Terrific, no?
ricland
My wife is Mexican so I think I can speak to this issue with some |
knowledge.
There are good dentists in Mexico, but you have to be very careful in
looking for them and finding them. Even in the big city where she
lived, and her sister being a dental student, it was difficult for her
sister to get her to a good dentist. She said "Go to this dentist, he
teaches at the University."
She did so. But that dentist was not available so his assistant did
the work. The assistant did less than great work, and she had to have
some of that work re-done.
One other time, a dentist closed up a surgery and left the cotton in
her mouth. She of course had a terrible infection, had horrible
unbearable pain until she went to another dentist who fixed the
problem on an emergency basis.
Another dentist "fixed" the gap she had between her front teeth when
my wife was a teenager. He fixed it by inserting a little tiny tooth
there. She wasn't old enough to know better, and did not realize what
he'd done til it was done.
I could go on with stories of her relatives having problems with
doctors and dentists in Mexico. Her sister's mother in law died while
getting a colon cleansing by some quack who did not know what she was
doing.
I know a guy who saw a doctor in Cancun start to use a dirty needle on
him. Even though he was in pain and had a broken wrist he high-tailed
it out of there and got on a plane to the states.
I would never get major medical care done in Mexico.
I WOULD get dental work done there, but ONLY after being very SURE the
dentist was a good one, by knowing someone who had major work done by
the dentist more than once, etc...
Now, the other side of the coin is that sometimes this stuff happens
here in the U.S., too, and certainly I have had several very bad
dental experiences here in the U.S.; one cost me a tooth which I could
not afford to lose ; now I'm having to get an implant there. My wife
had to have an apicoectomy because of a bad root canal here. And a
dentist here did very bad bridge work on her, too: All were HMO dental
insurance dentists.
I no longer use HMO dental insurance dentists in the U.S.. I also only
use endodontists now, for root canals.
I found that the local University graduate students at the dental
school do excellent work and have close supervision. |
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Joel M. Eichen
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 4062
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:08 am Post subject:
Re: A Strategy to Avoid America's Rip-off Dentists
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You wrote:
One other time, a dentist closed up a surgery and left the cotton in
her mouth. She of course had a terrible infection, had horrible
unbearable pain until she went to another dentist who fixed the
problem on an emergency basis
R E P L Y
Yeah I know. Another guy sewed up an
entire rabbit inside an extraction site. I read
about this on the PETA website.
--
Joel344
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel344's Profile: http://dentalcom.net/forum/member.php?userid=12
View this thread: http://dentalcom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4540 |
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