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the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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Ron Peterson
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:37 am    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

Ron Peterson wrote:

Quote:
DHA is generally not available in appreciable quantities in most plant
based human foods. There is a microalgae that does produce DHA and one
company (Martek) is using that process to produce DHA as a food
supplement for baby formula.

Martek announced a deal with General Mills to use DHA is some food
product (cereal?) this afternoon.

--
Ron
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Floyd L. Davidson
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:51 am    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

"TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
NoOptio...@aol.com wrote:
So the buzzword for optimum health should be "variety".

Patrick

I disagree. Inuits and Eskimos were very very healthy on a very
restricted diet, food variety wise. Mostly fish, seals and very few
plant-sourced foods. The Masai ate mostly animal sourced foods centered
around their cattle herd and they were extremely healthy.

I have no idea if "variety" is valid, or just a buzz word. But
your statements above are 1) manufactured "facts", 2) intended
to trick the naive, and 3) do not address the question.

First "Inuits and Eskimos" is a strange thing to say, because
*all* Inuit people are Eskimos. Why not either just say Inuit
people, or just say Eskimos to include them all?

Regardless, what you claim about their diet is something you
assume nobody will question, and it isn't anything you know
about or can verify. It is also totally wrong.

Traditional Eskimo diet is in fact higher in meat and fat than
are most traditional European diets, which have the same
relationship to most traditional Asian diets. But saying they
lacked variety is absurd! Saying they lacked "plant-sourced
foods" is ridiculous.

Exactly what type of fish and which sea mammals depends on the
location, but commonly Eskimo diets include at least a dozen
different types of fish, at least one type of terrestrial
ungulate (caribou, mouse, muskox), at least two types of seals,
and usually walrus and maybe beluga and or bowhead whale.
Additionally they typically had access to a variety of small
animals (beaver, porcupine, muskrat, etc.) and generally more
than a dozen different birds, including owls, ducks, geese,
swans, cranes, ptarmigan, spruce chickens.

Obviously very few agriculture based diets include nearly as
much variety in terms of meat!

But plant foods were not significantly different either! Plants
are of course exactly the food that most of the animals mentioned
above feed on, and those same plants are available for human
consumption too. Grasses, tubers, and berries are abundant on
the Arctic tundra, which in fact is a thick layer of vegetation
that is any botanist's delight!

Quote:
Variety is just a marketting scam to sell the new foods that are not
necessarily natural for us to have available year round.

What does "available year round" mean? Humans appear to have
been storing food from season to season for an awful long
time...

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
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NoOption5L@aol.com
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

TC wrote:

Quote:
You actually have a valid point. But don't tell me that grains are the
panacea viv-a-vis human health, because they are a poor human food
choice. And there is no way to improve grains to where they will
prevent the human race from future starvation or malnourishment leading
to serious chronic disease, unless you find a way to create grain that
contains the essential vitamins, proteins and fats that are only
available from animal sourced foods.

What proteins and fats are only available from animal sourced foods?

The following nutrients are only available in adequate amounts and/or
in useable forms from animal sourced foods:

Vitamins:
Vitamin B-12

B-12 is the only vitamin not available in plant sources.

Vitamin B-6
Vitamin D

The last two are available but not in large amounts. Deficiencies will
occur eventually on a vegetarian diet.

Vitamin D is available with a few minutes on sunshine, so that's a moot
point.

Sigh.......here we go again........

YOU CAN'T GET ENOUGH VITAMIN D FROM SUNSHINE ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!

"Vitamin D (calciferol) is different from all other nutrients in that
the body can synthesize it, with the help of sunlight, from a precursor
that the body makes from cholesterol. Therefore given enough time in
the sun, people need no vitamin D from foods."

"Most of the World's population relies on natural exposure to sunlight
to maintain adequate vitamin D nutrition."

Understanding Nutrition -- 9th edition

Quote:
Even to stave off deficiency symptoms, you cannot get enough D from
sunshine. And that is far far short of the amounts needed for optimal
health.

So spend 15-20 minutes in the sun and eat a hand full of almonds and
you're good to go.

Quote:
As for B6, you can survive for months, maybe years, without any so an
occasional egg or slice meat is all that's needed.

You may survive and your kids may survive for months, maybe years, but
I would rather I and my kids *thrive* than merely *survive* during
those months and/or years.

That was just to make the point you don't NEED to eat meat every day.
A couple eggs for breakfast, a piece of chicken for lunch or a small
slice of roast beef for dinner is PLENTY.

Quote:
Amino Acids (Proteins):
Tryptophan
Methionine
Lysine
Isoleucine
Threonine

All amino acids are available and in highly usable forms in balanced
plant-based meals.

Not in optimal amounts.

To get an "optimal" mix of amino acids, all you have to do is eat a
varied diet of grains, beans, nuts/seeds throughout the day. Any milk,
yogurt, meat or eggs you happen to consume is just icing on the cake.

That is not optimal, it is bare survival. Again, I want to thrive not
just survive.

You seem to be a Mr. Must Get 150%-300% of Every Nutrient Every Day.
That's sensless because the closer you get to the theoredical 100% the
less efficient your body gets in using it. Plus, when you roll over
that 100%, those more than 100% supplied nutrients sometimes start
interferring with the absorption of other nutrients.

Quote:
Minerals:
Calcium
ferritin
zinc

Nonsense.

Sorry, not nonsense.

Dispite what you think, your meat diet and Zone Diet book are not the
Holy Grails of nutrition. You're best served by eating a wide variety
of quaility foods, which includes some whole grains and meat/dairy.

Many sub-groups of peoples have thrived on some seemingly restricted
long term diets, all having animal sourced foods in common. There is no
group that has thrived on vegetarian diets.

That's untrue.

Quote:
The wide variety of food concept is just another way to market food. It
has little to do with health. And more often the foods touted are those
sold by larger corporations like grains, fruits, soy, etc.

And diet will only get you halfway to good health. The other half of
good health is supplied by getting plenty of excercise. Again, just
like diet, your exercise must come from a variety of sources --
running, walking, yoga, lifting weights, stretching and just staying
active/off your ass.

Not necessarily plenty of exercise but moderate exercise. Many studies
have shown that moderate exercise is as useful as heavy exercise, and
less damaging to the body.

Most Americans error way too far to south of "moderate" and "plenty"
when it comes to exercise. It's sad.

Quote:
You have to keep moving but you don't have to move a mountain every day.

Agreed. But you do need variation and to push yourself out of your
comfort zone ocassionally.

Quote:
So the buzzword for optimum health should be "variety".

I disagree. Inuits and Eskimos were very very healthy on a very
restricted diet, food variety wise. Mostly fish, seals and very few
plant-sourced foods. The Masai ate mostly animal sourced foods centered
around their cattle herd and they were extremely healthy.

Variety is just a marketing scam to sell the new foods that are not
necessarily natural for us to have available year round.

I take it you're including the massive amounts of meat the meat
industry pushes through their production lines into your marketing-scam
theory.

Have you ever seen a film titled "Meet your Meat"? If you haven't, you
need to.

Let me reiterate, I do not believe that eating meat is bad, just that
Americans eat way to damn much of it. They also eat a lot of crappy
carbs and low-grade fat.

Patrick
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GMCarter
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:26:46 GMT, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu>
wrote:

Quote:
Yes, elevated homocysteine is associated with CHD. But randomized studies
that have treated the high homocysteine have found that the treatment group
has higher rates of heart attack, not lower.

What treatment? How low did the homocysteine drop? Etc.

Quote:
The *causal* link of homocysteine has not been shown and it is even possible
that it confers some protection. It's also possible that the treatments
employed themselves have deleterious effects that offset a benefit of
homocysteine reduction.

Again--what treatments?

Quote:
I'll try to find the references later. Or, try Pubmed with limits set to
randomized trial.

Please post the abstracts when you find them! Thanks.

George M. Carter
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Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in part:

Quote:
"TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote:
NoOptio...@aol.com wrote:
So the buzzword for optimum health should be "variety".

Patrick

I disagree. Inuits and Eskimos were very very healthy on a very
restricted diet, food variety wise. Mostly fish, seals and very few
plant-sourced foods. The Masai ate mostly animal sourced foods centered
around their cattle herd and they were extremely healthy.

I have no idea if "variety" is valid, or just a buzz word. But
your statements above are 1) manufactured "facts", 2) intended
to trick the naive, and 3) do not address the question.

First "Inuits and Eskimos" is a strange thing to say, because
*all* Inuit people are Eskimos. Why not either just say Inuit
people, or just say Eskimos to include them all?

Regardless, what you claim about their diet is something you
assume nobody will question, and it isn't anything you know
about or can verify. It is also totally wrong.

Traditional Eskimo diet is in fact higher in meat and fat than
are most traditional European diets, which have the same
relationship to most traditional Asian diets. But saying they
lacked variety is absurd! Saying they lacked "plant-sourced
foods" is ridiculous.

Exactly what type of fish and which sea mammals depends on the
location, but commonly Eskimo diets include at least a dozen
different types of fish, at least one type of terrestrial
ungulate (caribou, mouse, muskox), at least two types of seals,
and usually walrus and maybe beluga and or bowhead whale.
Additionally they typically had access to a variety of small
animals (beaver, porcupine, muskrat, etc.) and generally more
than a dozen different birds, including owls, ducks, geese,
swans, cranes, ptarmigan, spruce chickens.

Obviously very few agriculture based diets include nearly as
much variety in terms of meat!

But plant foods were not significantly different either! Plants
are of course exactly the food that most of the animals mentioned
above feed on, and those same plants are available for human
consumption too. Grasses, tubers, and berries are abundant on
the Arctic tundra, which in fact is a thick layer of vegetation
that is any botanist's delight!

Variety is just a marketting scam to sell the new foods that are not
necessarily natural for us to have available year round.

What does "available year round" mean? Humans appear to have
been storing food from season to season for an awful long
time...

Thanks for setting this straight. I keep seeing the crazy argument about the
Inuit diet, as stated by TC. It's like an urban myth--you can't kill it.

Another difference when making such comparisons is the extremely high level
of exercise needed on the tundra--and the relatively short lifespan due to
the hazards of such a life.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
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Floyd L. Davidson
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
Quote:
floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in part:

Thanks for setting this straight. I keep seeing the crazy argument about the
Inuit diet, as stated by TC. It's like an urban myth--you can't kill it.

I agree. It happens that I regularly do word searches on Google
for topics of interest to me, and these statements hit one of
the triggers. Hence I see this claim just about every time it
is posted anywhere on Usenet. For the most part, I avoid
discussion of diet and health though, because it is *all* a
bunch of malarchy and there is not much point, in my opinion,
in telling someone who has 40 silly reasons to believe something
that 1 or 2 of them might not be right! :-)

But that particular article just tweeked me a little too much
because it was *so* incorrect.

Quote:
Another difference when making such comparisons is the extremely high level
of exercise needed on the tundra--and the relatively short lifespan due to
the hazards of such a life.

Very correct observations. Even today a typical Eskimo diet
leans towards what the traditional diet it, and even today the
physical exercise levels that at least many if not most Eskimos
engage in is far beyond the average for other parts of the US.

But it is also true that comparing *anybody's* lifespan in
Alaska to the rest of the US and claiming it has something to do
with diet, simply *cannot* be correct. Accidental death is
*very* high on the charts here, compared to anywhere else. We
do things that are simply dangerous, and we do them with
regularity. The effect is that statistics, even for such things
as cancer or heart disease which are *clearly* diet related,
cannot be compared to other parts of the US. (How can somebody
who drowns in a boating accident at 38 years old contribute to
the statistics for heart disease...)

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
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Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in part:

Quote:
Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in part:

Thanks for setting this straight. I keep seeing the crazy argument about the
Inuit diet, as stated by TC. It's like an urban myth--you can't kill it.

I agree. It happens that I regularly do word searches on Google
for topics of interest to me, and these statements hit one of
the triggers. Hence I see this claim just about every time it
is posted anywhere on Usenet. For the most part, I avoid
discussion of diet and health though, because it is *all* a
bunch of malarchy and there is not much point, in my opinion,
in telling someone who has 40 silly reasons to believe something
that 1 or 2 of them might not be right! Smile

It helps to establish that the poster's reliability is low, and it raises
the distinct possibility that the other 38 or 38 reasons may be baseless as
well.

Quote:
But that particular article just tweeked me a little too much
because it was *so* incorrect.

Another difference when making such comparisons is the extremely high level
of exercise needed on the tundra--and the relatively short lifespan due to
the hazards of such a life.

Very correct observations. Even today a typical Eskimo diet
leans towards what the traditional diet it, and even today the
physical exercise levels that at least many if not most Eskimos
engage in is far beyond the average for other parts of the US.

But it is also true that comparing *anybody's* lifespan in
Alaska to the rest of the US and claiming it has something to do
with diet, simply *cannot* be correct. Accidental death is
*very* high on the charts here, compared to anywhere else. We
do things that are simply dangerous, and we do them with
regularity. The effect is that statistics, even for such things
as cancer or heart disease which are *clearly* diet related,
cannot be compared to other parts of the US. (How can somebody
who drowns in a boating accident at 38 years old contribute to
the statistics for heart disease...)

I've traveled a bit in Alaska and arctic parts of western Canada. One thing
that was pointed out to me was that even berry-picking can be hazardous to
ones health--given the presence of grizzlies that may have laid claim to
that particular patch...
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
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Floyd L. Davidson
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
Quote:

I've traveled a bit in Alaska and arctic parts of western Canada. One thing
that was pointed out to me was that even berry-picking can be hazardous to
ones health--given the presence of grizzlies that may have laid claim to
that particular patch...

Highly overrated risk. We don't lose more than one or two people
to bears per year... ;-)

Actually, moose are more dangerous!

But, to be honest, what kills us more than anything else is that we
work hard and then tend to uncork a bottle an play harder. Some times
we play with guns and boats and trucks... and the death rate from
that is obnoxious.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
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Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in part:

Quote:
But, to be honest, what kills us more than anything else is that we
work hard and then tend to uncork a bottle an play harder. Some times
we play with guns and boats and trucks... and the death rate from
that is obnoxious.

I noticed that just about everyone has a (often pretty scary) plane parked
in the yard, all the road signs are bullet-riddled, all windshields are
cracked, and the saloons are always open.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
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Floyd L. Davidson
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
Quote:
floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in part:

But, to be honest, what kills us more than anything else is that we
work hard and then tend to uncork a bottle an play harder. Some times
we play with guns and boats and trucks... and the death rate from
that is obnoxious.

I noticed that just about everyone has a (often pretty scary) plane parked
in the yard, all the road signs are bullet-riddled, all windshields are
cracked, and the saloons are always open.

Yep. Though that does sound more like the "road system".

In the bush, not all signs will be shot full of holes (though in
places as large as Barrow, they won't last as long as they do on
the highways). There probably won't be any saloons (except Nome,
where there are an equal number of saloons and churches), and in
the bush there might not even be a windshield to be cracked.

We also don't throw anything away. We stack it in the yard, just
in case we need it. And if we don't "need" it, we do get to make
use of the fond memories that whatever it is will provide. Old
trucks are particularly handy, but snowmachines, sleds, boats, and
so on all qualify.

We have a far superior value system, compared to the Lower-48!

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
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Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in part:

Quote:
On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:26:46 GMT, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
wrote:

Yes, elevated homocysteine is associated with CHD. But randomized studies
that have treated the high homocysteine have found that the treatment group
has higher rates of heart attack, not lower.

What treatment? How low did the homocysteine drop? Etc.

The *causal* link of homocysteine has not been shown and it is even possible
that it confers some protection. It's also possible that the treatments
employed themselves have deleterious effects that offset a benefit of
homocysteine reduction.

Again--what treatments?

I'll try to find the references later. Or, try Pubmed with limits set to
randomized trial.

Please post the abstracts when you find them! Thanks.

There are a lot of controlled trial in progress. I believe only a few have
been reported so far, and they all showed an increase in heart disease
problems in the reduced homocysteine groups.

Treatment in these trials was folate, with or without B6 and B12. Two were
very recent, the HOPE-2 and NORVIT trials, and I can reproduce their
abstracts here:

(1) The Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation (HOPE) 2 Investigators.
Homocysteine lowering with folic acid and B vitamins in vascular disease. N
Engl J Med 2006; DOI:10.1056/NEJMoa060900.

Homocysteine lowering with folic acid and B vitamins in vascular disease.

Lonn E, Yusuf S, Arnold MJ, Sheridan P, Pogue J, Micks M, McQueen MJ,
Probstfield J, Fodor G, Held C, Genest J Jr; Heart Outcomes Prevention
Evaluation (HOPE) 2 Investigators.

Population Health Research Institute, Hamilton General Hospital, McMaster
University, and the Department of Medicine, Division of Cardiology, Hamilton
Health Sciences, Hamilton, Ont. lonnem@mcmaster.ca

BACKGROUND: In observational studies, lower homocysteine levels are
associated with lower rates of coronary heart disease and stroke. Folic acid
and vitamins B6 and B12 lower homocysteine levels. We assessed whether
supplementation reduced the risk of major cardiovascular events in patients
with vascular disease. METHODS: We randomly assigned 5522 patients 55 years
of age or older who had vascular disease or diabetes to daily treatment
either with the combination of 2.5 mg of folic acid, 50 mg of vitamin B6,
and 1 mg of vitamin B12 or with placebo for an average of five years. The
primary outcome was a composite of death from cardiovascular causes,
myocardial infarction, and stroke. RESULTS: Mean plasma homocysteine levels
decreased by 2.4 micromol per liter (0.3 mg per liter) in the
active-treatment group and increased by 0.8 micromol per liter (0.1 mg per
liter) in the placebo group. Primary outcome events occurred in 519 patients
(18.8 percent) assigned to active therapy and 547 (19.8 percent) assigned to
placebo (relative risk, 0.95; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.84 to 1.07;
P=0.41). As compared with placebo, active treatment did not significantly
decrease the risk of death from cardiovascular causes (relative risk, 0.96;
95 percent confidence interval, 0.81 to 1.13), myocardial infarction
(relative risk, 0.98; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.85 to 1.14), or any
of the secondary outcomes. Fewer patients assigned to active treatment than
to placebo had a stroke (relative risk, 0.75; 95 percent confidence
interval, 0.59 to 0.97). More patients in the active-treatment group were
hospitalized for unstable angina (relative risk, 1.24; 95 percent confidence
interval, 1.04 to 1.49). CONCLUSIONS: Supplements combining folic acid and
vitamins B6 and B12 did not reduce the risk of major cardiovascular events
in patients with vascular disease. (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00106886;
Current Controlled Trials number, ISRCTN14017017.). Copyright 2006
Massachusetts Medical Society.




(2) Bønaa KH, Njølstad I, Ueland PM, et al, for the NORVIT Trial
Investigators.
Homocysteine lowering and cardiovascular events after acute myocardial
infarction. N Engl J Med 2006; DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa055227.

Homocysteine lowering and cardiovascular events after acute myocardial
infarction.

Bonaa KH, Njolstad I, Ueland PM, Schirmer H, Tverdal A, Steigen T, Wang H,
Nordrehaug JE, Arnesen E, Rasmussen K; NORVIT Trial Investigators.

Institute of Community Medicine, University of Tromso, Tromso, Norway.
kaare.bonaa@stolav.no

BACKGROUND: Homocysteine is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. We
evaluated the efficacy of homocysteine-lowering treatment with B vitamins
for secondary prevention in patients who had had an acute myocardial
infarction. METHODS: The trial included 3749 men and women who had had an
acute myocardial infarction within seven days before randomization. Patients
were randomly assigned, in a two-by-two factorial design, to receive one of
the following four daily treatments: 0.8 mg of folic acid, 0.4 mg of vitamin
B12, and 40 mg of vitamin B6; 0.8 mg of folic acid and 0.4 mg of vitamin
B12; 40 mg of vitamin B6; or placebo. The primary end point during a median
follow-up of 40 months was a composite of recurrent myocardial infarction,
stroke, and sudden death attributed to coronary artery disease. RESULTS: The
mean total homocysteine level was lowered by 27 percent among patients given
folic acid plus vitamin B12, but such treatment had no significant effect on
the primary end point (risk ratio, 1.08; 95 percent confidence interval,
0.93 to 1.25; P=0.31). Also, treatment with vitamin B6 was not associated
with any significant benefit with regard to the primary end point (relative
risk of the primary end point, 1.14; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.98 to
1.32; P=0.09). In the group given folic acid, vitamin B12, and vitamin B6,
there was a trend toward an increased risk (relative risk, 1.22; 95 percent
confidence interval, 1.00 to 1.50; P=0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Treatment with B
vitamins did not lower the risk of recurrent cardiovascular disease after
acute myocardial infarction. A harmful effect from combined B vitamin
treatment was suggested. Such treatment should therefore not be recommended.
(ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00266487.). Copyright 2006 Massachusetts
Medical Society.


Note that the first study above found essentially no net benefit from
treating homocysteine with vitamins, whereas the second study found the
suggestion of a negative effect: " In the group given folic acid, vitamin
B12, and vitamin B6, there was a trend toward an increased risk (relative
risk, 1.22; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.00 to 1.50; P=0.05)." I
believe there is at least one other study that has been reported on, and
that it has negative effects also, but I can't locate it right now.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
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GMCarter
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 21:23:44 GMT, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu>
wrote:

Quote:
There are a lot of controlled trial in progress. I believe only a few have
been reported so far, and they all showed an increase in heart disease
problems in the reduced homocysteine groups.

Thanks for the two abstracts. I'll see if I can locate the full papers
as abstracts can be misleading.

Let me know if you find more--I appreciate it!

George M. Carter
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Jim Chinnis
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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:12 am    Post subject: Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs? Reply with quote

GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in part:

Quote:
On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 21:23:44 GMT, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
wrote:

There are a lot of controlled trial in progress. I believe only a few have
been reported so far, and they all showed an increase in heart disease
problems in the reduced homocysteine groups.

Thanks for the two abstracts. I'll see if I can locate the full papers
as abstracts can be misleading.

Let me know if you find more--I appreciate it!

George M. Carter

I just want to correct my own post that you quoted above. The studies I've
seen have either found no benefit (overall) from the homocysteine reduction,
or a suggestion of an increase in heart disease events. Not all showed an
increase in heart disease problems, as I first stated.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
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