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Roman Bystrianyk medicine forum Guru
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 454
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Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:45 am Post subject:
Obesity a major risk factor for stroke
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http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?event=news_print_list_item&id=802
Carolyn Susman, "Obesity a major risk factor for stroke", Chicago
Tribune, May 8, 2005,
Link:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/nearwest/chi-0505080433may08,1,4129911.story?coll=chi-newslocalnearwest-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
In a study of more than 39,000 women, researchers confirm that
maintaining a healthy weight may be one of the most effective ways to
prevent a stroke.
The study was led by epidemiologist Dr. Tobias Kurth, of the Division
of Preventive Medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital.
"The news about aspirin's effects on stroke prevention has been widely
publicized, possibly because many people are looking for a `magic
bullet,' but aspirin alone is no single cure for stroke prevention,"
Kurth said. "What our study confirms is that preventing excessive
weight gain and obesity can be an even more powerful tool, in addition
to aspirin, to stop strokes, and, it is a safe remedy all women can
adopt."
In this study, researchers examined data reported by more than 39,000
middle-age women who answered questionnaires about body mass index
(BMI) and the incidence of stroke, along with other lifestyle habits
over a 10-year period. The analysis showed that BMI was a strong risk
factor for stroke.
"Our analysis revealed that obese women are two times more likely to
suffer from a stroke compared to healthy-weight women, and this did not
change based on whether or not women smoked or how often they
exercised," Kurth said.
The researchers believe obesity should be considered an established
primary risk factor for stroke. |
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Juhana Harju medicine forum Guru
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 1056
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Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:59 am Post subject:
Re: Obesity a major risk factor for stroke
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Roman Bystrianyk wrote:
:: http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?event=news_print_list_item&id=802
::
:: Carolyn Susman, "Obesity a major risk factor for stroke", Chicago
:: Tribune, May 8, 2005,
:: Link:
::
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/nearwest/chi-0505080433may08,1,4129911.story?coll=chi-newslocalnearwest-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
::
:: In a study of more than 39,000 women, researchers confirm that
:: maintaining a healthy weight may be one of the most effective ways to
:: prevent a stroke.
:: [...]
The abstract:
Circulation. 2005 Apr 19;111(15):1992-8. Related Articles, Links
Prospective study of body mass index and risk of stroke in apparently
healthy women.
Kurth T, Gaziano JM, Rexrode KM, Kase CS, Cook NR, Manson JE, Buring JE.
Division of Preventive Medicine, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Harvard
Medical School, 900 Commonwealth Ave E, Boston, MA 02215-1204, USA.
tkurth@rics.bwh.harvard.edu
BACKGROUND: Obesity is an escalating pandemic in the United States, and its
association with coronary heart disease is well understood. Several studies
have found positive associations between body mass index (BMI) and stroke in
men, but the association with stroke and its subtypes is less clear in
women. METHODS AND RESULTS: This was a prospective cohort study among 39 053
women participating in the Women's Health Study. BMI was measured as
self-reported weight (in kilograms) divided by height (in meters) squared.
Incident stroke was self-reported and confirmed by medical record review. We
used the Cox proportional hazards model to evaluate the association between
BMI and stroke. After a mean follow-up of 10 years, a total of 432 strokes
(347 ischemic, 81 hemorrhagic, and 4 undefined) occurred. We found a
statistically significant trend for increased risk of total and ischemic
stroke across 7 BMI categories. With World Health Organization criteria,
women who were obese (BMI > or =30 kg/m2) had hazard ratios of 1.50 (95% CI
1.16 to 1.94) for total stroke, 1.72 (95% CI 1.30 to 2.2 for ischemic
stroke, and 0.82 (95% CI 0.43 to 1.5 for hemorrhagic stroke compared with
women with BMI <25 kg/m2. Additional control for history of hypertension,
diabetes, and elevated cholesterol substantially attenuated the hazard
ratios for total and ischemic stroke. There was no effect modification for
age, exercise, or smoking. CONCLUSIONS: In this large prospective cohort
study among women, BMI was a strong risk factor for total and ischemic
stroke but not for hemorrhagic stroke. The association was highly mediated
by hypertension, diabetes, and elevated cholesterol. PMID: 15837954
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15837954
--
Juhana |
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD medicine forum Guru
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 8540
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Jeff medicine forum Guru
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 1313
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject:
Re: Obesity a major risk factor for stroke
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"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:4286562B.61944A14@heartmdphd.com...
You may want to point us to the peer-reviewed articles that show that
2PD-OMER approach works and helps reduce strokes.
Jeff
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LadyLollipop medicine forum Guru
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 874
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Obesity a major risk factor for stroke
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"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XWthe.1192$M36.794@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A.A.
Reprinted from The World Research News, 1st quarter 1998 issue, with
permission.
The premise is that there are innovative medical therapies existing
today that offer solutions to some of our most pressing health
problems and that at the same time offer a significant reduction in
health care costs. These therapies are largely being ignored or in
some cases ridiculed.
To most of us involved in scientific research, this seems an odd
notion at first. Surely, one would think, discoveries and
breakthroughs offering great promise in the treatment of disease
would be at once communicated and embraced by the scientific/medical
community. However, those who study the history of scientific
progress conclude otherwise. Science frequently fails to demonstrate
the dispassion we attribute to it.
Historical citations of science resisting new ideas are too numerous
to review in any depth, from Copernicus to Galileo to Darwin, Mendel,
Ohm, Young, Pasteur, lister, Fleming ... the list goes on and on. It
is perhaps more instructive to briefly examine the reasons for resis
tance to innovation in medicine.
Tomato Effect - The tomato effect in medicine occurs when a highly
efficacious therapy for a certain disease is ignored or rejected
because it does not '.make sense" in the light of accepted theories
of disease mechanism and drug action. Doctors at the University of
New Mexico School of Medicine introduced the tomato effect in JAMA.
May 11, 1984. Its name is derived from the history of the tomato in
North America. By 1560, the tomato was becoming a staple of the
continental European diet. However, it was shunned in America until
the 1800's. Why? Because we knew it was poisonous. Everyone knew
tomatoes belong to the nightshade family. The leaves and fruit of
several plants in this family can cause death if ingested. The fact
that Europeans were eating tomatoes without harm was not relevant. It
simply did not make sense to eat poisonous food.
Peer Review - Ile peer review process probably has done more to
discourage innovative research than any other factor that I have
observed. The March 9, 1990 issue of JAMA was devoted entirely to the
topic of peer review. One article in particular, by Horrobin (himself
editor of a peer reviewed medical journal) , cited 18 examples of
peer review attempting to suppress medical innovation. The article
observed: " ... some of the most distinguished of scientists may
display sophisticated behavior that can only be described as
pathological. Editors must be conscious that, despite public
protestations to the contrary, many scientistreviewers are against
innovation unless it is their innovation. Innovation from others may
be a threat because it diminishes the importance of the scientist's
own work.
"Peer review in the grant giving process is so restrictive that most
innovative scientists know they would never receive funding if they
actually said what they were going to do. Scientists therefore have
to tell lies in their grant applications. Such views have explicitly
been stated by at least two Nobel Laureates."
The (JAMA) article contends that medicine has lost sight of the basic
purpose of peer review, asserting, "the true aim of peer review in
biomedical science must be to improve the quality of patient care."
Wrong Economics - When a new therapy comes along that is cheaper,
safer and more effective, it is seen as a competitive threat to those
engaged in the therapy it will displace. Those who stand to be most
economically disadvantaged naturally endeavor to block its
acceptance.
International Barriers - A combination of communication problems
(language barriers) and national chauvinism (if it wasn't discovered
here it can't be of much value) keep some innovative practices
developed in Europe and Asia from reaching the United States.
Cumbersome Bureaucracy - It has been estimated that the FDA approval
process takes an average of 12 years and costs $231 million. This
presents unique difficulties for independent researchers and for
therapies that do not lend themselves to patentability.
It is my observation that there is a role for the insurance industry
in advocating evaluation of innovative medical thera pies. Actuaries
should be almost immune to the tomato effect. We are focused almost
exclusively on statistical results as opposed to theory. Since the
insurance industry pays most of the bills, it should have great
economic motivation to see safe., effective and inexpensive therapies
extensively evaluated and widely disseminated. Consideration of an
industry-wide fund for innovative research could deal with the
problem of peer review. The insurance industry is a sleeping economic
giant. When it awakens to the cost containment possibilities
available through innovative therapies, we will see enormous changes
in the practice of medicine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Volume 6 No. 3 The Road Back Foundation" Antibiotic Therapy for
Rheumatic Diseases Summer 1998
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Rich medicine forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 585
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject:
Re: Obesity a major risk factor for stroke
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"LadyLollipop" <LadyLollipop@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:YWvhe.81747$c24.23361@attbi_s72...
| Quote: |
"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XWthe.1192$M36.794@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:4286562B.61944A14@heartmdphd.com...
Roman Bystrianyk wrote:
http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?event=news_print_list_item&id=802
Carolyn Susman, "Obesity a major risk factor for stroke", Chicago
Tribune, May 8, 2005,
Link:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/nearwest/chi-0505080433may08,1,4129911.story?coll=chi-newslocalnearwest-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/press.asp
You may want to point us to the peer-reviewed articles that show that
2PD-OMER approach works and helps reduce strokes.
Jeff
Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A.A.
Reprinted from The World Research News, 1st quarter 1998 issue, with
permission.
The premise is that there are innovative medical therapies existing
today that offer solutions to some of our most pressing health
problems and that . . .
|
< snip >
How many times must you repost this?
And what does it add to the discussion?
If you are opposed to the peer-review process, and believe that medical
journals should discard peer review and publish every scientific-sounding
piece of written garbage that comes in over the transom, please tell us why.
--Rich |
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LadyLollipop medicine forum Guru
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 874
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject:
Re: Obesity a major risk factor for stroke
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"Rich" <joshew@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Gqwhe.15001$ya2.2160@tornado.socal.rr.com...
| Quote: |
"LadyLollipop" <LadyLollipop@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:YWvhe.81747$c24.23361@attbi_s72...
"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XWthe.1192$M36.794@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:4286562B.61944A14@heartmdphd.com...
Roman Bystrianyk wrote:
http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?event=news_print_list_item&id=802
Carolyn Susman, "Obesity a major risk factor for stroke", Chicago
Tribune, May 8, 2005,
Link:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/nearwest/chi-0505080433may08,1,4129911.story?coll=chi-newslocalnearwest-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/press.asp
You may want to point us to the peer-reviewed articles that show that
2PD-OMER approach works and helps reduce strokes.
Jeff
Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A.A.
Reprinted from The World Research News, 1st quarter 1998 issue, with
permission.
The premise is that there are innovative medical therapies existing
today that offer solutions to some of our most pressing health
problems and that . . .
snip
How many times must you repost this?
|
(You may want to point us to the peer-reviewed articles
Jeff)
That many.
LL/Jan
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Rich medicine forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 585
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 11:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Obesity a major risk factor for stroke
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"LadyLollipop" <LadyLollipop@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:o8xhe.81679$WI3.76448@attbi_s71...
| Quote: |
"Rich" <joshew@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Gqwhe.15001$ya2.2160@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"LadyLollipop" <LadyLollipop@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:YWvhe.81747$c24.23361@attbi_s72...
"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XWthe.1192$M36.794@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:4286562B.61944A14@heartmdphd.com...
Roman Bystrianyk wrote:
http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?event=news_print_list_item&id=802
Carolyn Susman, "Obesity a major risk factor for stroke", Chicago
Tribune, May 8, 2005,
Link:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/nearwest/chi-0505080433may08,1,4129911.story?coll=chi-newslocalnearwest-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/press.asp
You may want to point us to the peer-reviewed articles that show that
2PD-OMER approach works and helps reduce strokes.
Jeff
Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A.A.
Reprinted from The World Research News, 1st quarter 1998 issue, with
permission.
The premise is that there are innovative medical therapies existing
today that offer solutions to some of our most pressing health
problems and that . . .
snip
How many times must you repost this?
(You may want to point us to the peer-reviewed articles
Jeff)
That many.
LL/Jan
|
So do you think that doing away with peer review would result in a lot of
"innovative medical therapies" moving rapidly into mainstream use? Please do
tell us why. Even this seven-year-old article that you keep resposting does
not offer a solution other than to rally insurance companies to the cause of
promoting "innovative therapies". Perhaps you can add something of your own
rather than just reaching for the cut and paste buttons as a knee-jerk
reaction to the words "peer review".
--Rich |
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LadyLollipop medicine forum Guru
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 874
|
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 1:47 am Post subject:
Re: Obesity a major risk factor for stroke
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"Rich" <joshew@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:fixhe.15211$ya2.11109@tornado.socal.rr.com...
| Quote: |
"LadyLollipop" <LadyLollipop@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:o8xhe.81679$WI3.76448@attbi_s71...
"Rich" <joshew@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Gqwhe.15001$ya2.2160@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"LadyLollipop" <LadyLollipop@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:YWvhe.81747$c24.23361@attbi_s72...
"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XWthe.1192$M36.794@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:4286562B.61944A14@heartmdphd.com...
Roman Bystrianyk wrote:
http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?event=news_print_list_item&id=802
Carolyn Susman, "Obesity a major risk factor for stroke", Chicago
Tribune, May 8, 2005,
Link:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/nearwest/chi-0505080433may08,1,4129911.story?coll=chi-newslocalnearwest-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/press.asp
You may want to point us to the peer-reviewed articles that show that
2PD-OMER approach works and helps reduce strokes.
Jeff
Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A.A.
Reprinted from The World Research News, 1st quarter 1998 issue, with
permission.
The premise is that there are innovative medical therapies existing
today that offer solutions to some of our most pressing health
problems and that . . .
snip
How many times must you repost this?
(You may want to point us to the peer-reviewed articles
Jeff)
That many.
LL/Jan
So do you think that doing away with peer review would result in a lot of
"innovative medical therapies" moving rapidly into mainstream use?
|
It's not what *I* think, it's what the experts have obseved.
Ile peer review process probably has done more to
discourage innovative research than any other factor that I have
observed.
Please do tell us why. Even this seven-year-old article that you keep
resposting does
| Quote: | not offer a solution other than to rally insurance companies to the cause
of promoting "innovative therapies"
|
Seveer years old and nothing has changed.
Peer review in the grant giving process is so restrictive that most
innovative scientists know they would never receive funding if they
actually said what they were going to do. Scientists therefore have
to tell ******lies******* in their grant applications. Such views have
explicitly
been stated by at least two Nobel Laureates."
.. Perhaps you can add something of your own
| Quote: | rather than just reaching for the cut and paste buttons as a knee-jerk
reaction to the words "peer review".
--Rich
|
Famous words from those who don't like the *truth are *knee-jerk* along with
*it is not appropriate for MHA*
The (JAMA) article contends that medicine has lost sight of the basic
purpose of peer review, asserting, "the true aim of peer review in
biomedical science must be to improve the quality of patient care."
Wrong Economics - When a new therapy comes along that is cheaper,
safer and more effective, it is seen as a competitive threat to those
engaged in the therapy it will displace. Those who stand to be most
economically disadvantaged naturally endeavor to block its
acceptance.
Now for *my* added words.
There is a group here, who has an EGO problem, they are here to dismiss any
and all alternative/holistic medicine and dentistry, ALL studies and ALL
evidence. They LIE for each other and they don't care if their buddies lie
to this newsgroup, their mother or the pope. When they get confused, they
don't wish to discuss it, but badger others to do same. They privately
e-mail others, being rude, even thought they know it is rude, then
they,,,,YOU lie about it, just as certain others did. They have proven
themselves to have very few morals.
There's an entire paragraph. Every word the truth. A pity you aren't capable
of it.
LL/Jan |
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Rich medicine forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 585
|
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 8:21 am Post subject:
Re: Obesity a major risk factor for stroke
|
|
|
"LadyLollipop" <LadyLollipop@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:mDzhe.81862$WI3.466@attbi_s71...
| Quote: |
"Rich" <joshew@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:fixhe.15211$ya2.11109@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"LadyLollipop" <LadyLollipop@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:o8xhe.81679$WI3.76448@attbi_s71...
"Rich" <joshew@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Gqwhe.15001$ya2.2160@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"LadyLollipop" <LadyLollipop@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:YWvhe.81747$c24.23361@attbi_s72...
"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XWthe.1192$M36.794@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:4286562B.61944A14@heartmdphd.com...
Roman Bystrianyk wrote:
http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?event=news_print_list_item&id=802
Carolyn Susman, "Obesity a major risk factor for stroke", Chicago
Tribune, May 8, 2005,
Link:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/nearwest/chi-0505080433may08,1,4129911.story?coll=chi-newslocalnearwest-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/press.asp
You may want to point us to the peer-reviewed articles that show that
2PD-OMER approach works and helps reduce strokes.
Jeff
Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A.A.
Reprinted from The World Research News, 1st quarter 1998 issue, with
permission.
The premise is that there are innovative medical therapies existing
today that offer solutions to some of our most pressing health
problems and that . . .
snip
How many times must you repost this?
(You may want to point us to the peer-reviewed articles
Jeff)
That many.
LL/Jan
So do you think that doing away with peer review would result in a lot of
"innovative medical therapies" moving rapidly into mainstream use?
It's not what *I* think, it's what the experts have obseved.
Ile peer review process probably has done more to
discourage innovative research than any other factor that I have
observed.
Please do tell us why. Even this seven-year-old article that you keep
resposting does
not offer a solution other than to rally insurance companies to the cause
of promoting "innovative therapies"
Seveer years old and nothing has changed.
Peer review in the grant giving process is so restrictive that most
innovative scientists know they would never receive funding if they
actually said what they were going to do. Scientists therefore have
to tell ******lies******* in their grant applications. Such views have
explicitly
been stated by at least two Nobel Laureates."
. Perhaps you can add something of your own
rather than just reaching for the cut and paste buttons as a knee-jerk
reaction to the words "peer review".
--Rich
Famous words from those who don't like the *truth are *knee-jerk* along
with *it is not appropriate for MHA*
The (JAMA) article contends that medicine has lost sight of the basic
purpose of peer review, asserting, "the true aim of peer review in
biomedical science must be to improve the quality of patient care."
|
The basic purpose of peer review is to direct the available resources toward
the most promising new research, whether those resources are grant monies or
exposure in academic journals. Is it always fair and balanced? No. But
pointing out the flaws is pointless if you have no suggestions for a better
alternative system. The fact is that the resources are limited. Some worthy
research projects will not get funded and some papers will not get published
(or at least not get published in the more prestigious journals), regardless
of what system you use to select. The peer review system is well established
and will continue until something better is developed to replace it.
| Quote: |
Wrong Economics - When a new therapy comes along that is cheaper,
safer and more effective, it is seen as a competitive threat to those
engaged in the therapy it will displace. Those who stand to be most
economically disadvantaged naturally endeavor to block its
acceptance.
|
This is silly. When a new therapy comes along which is proven to have those
qualities, or even just shows a lot of promise to be "cheaper, safer, and
more effective", companies will be stampeding over each other to invest in
it to profit by replacing existing therapies.
| Quote: |
Now for *my* added words.
There is a group here, who has an EGO problem, they are here to dismiss
any and all alternative/holistic medicine and dentistry, ALL studies and
ALL evidence.
|
Not ALL studies nor ALL evidence. Just weak or flawed studies or
pseudostudies, published in websites instead of established journals are
dismissed. Weak evidence such as case histories and personal anecdotes are
not dismissed out of hand, but they are not allowed to trump rigorous
research, published and replicated.
| Quote: | They LIE for each other and they don't care if their buddies lie to this
newsgroup, their mother or the pope.
|
What you report as lies seldom, if ever, qualify for that designation.
| Quote: | When they get confused, they don't wish to discuss it, but badger others
to do same. They privately e-mail others, being rude, even thought they
know it is rude, then they,,,,YOU lie about it, just as certain others
did.
|
I did not e-mail you intentionally. I appologized.
They have proven
| Quote: | themselves to have very few morals.
|
"Judge not, that ye be not judged." Matt. 7:1 By the tenets of your own
religion, you are in no position to pass judgement on the morals of others,
even if yu were capable of determining just what they are.
| Quote: |
There's an entire paragraph. Every word the truth. A pity you aren't
capable of it.
|
Yes, a paragraph that once again contains only personal attacks on others,
without contributing any ideas or defense of your opinions on the subject at
hand.
My veracity is superior to yours by any measure.
--Rich |
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