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I. P. Freely
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 35
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 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject:
Re: Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies (xpost)
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Steph wrote:
| Quote: | "I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:CRSMf.898$F26.873@fe04.lga...
J wrote:
Steve Kramer wrote:
I believe they will
find that your tumor is a prostate cancer tumor in your colon as opposed
to
colon cancer.
How would they know, since they're both adenocarcinomas ?
PC is PC is PC. It's unmistakable (as PC) no matter where it occurs.
I.P.
It's not quite that clear cut.
A poorly diff prostate cancer may be indistinguishable from a poorly diff
colon cancer, if they don't express PSA or CEA respectively
I gotcha; thanks for the clarification. So it's assessed by appearance, |
which goes to hell as we near grade 5. I guess the next issue is which
type of CC is involved. Carcinoid CC is pretty unique in its production
of 5-HIAA, I believe, and thus more distinguishable from even a grade 5 PC.
I.P. |
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I. P. Freely
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject:
Re: Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies (xpost)
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Steph wrote:
| Quote: | "I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:gYSMf.913$F26.884@fe04.lga...
Steve Kramer wrote:
I suspect that if he has colon and prostate cancer and no other mets,
they will cut out the colon tumor and radiate the prostate.
I can't imagine using RT when they must open him up anyway to get the CC.
As long as they're in there, may as well grab the prostate at the same
time and do the pathology. Prostate excision is the more exacting surgery,
especially if nerve sparing is done, but the CC surgery is arguably the
bigger recovery issue simply because it's a bigger zipper and requires
more hospital time.
I.P.
Resection of a colon cancer, especially in the transverse or right colon, is
a MUCH simpler and less morbid surgery than radical prostatectomy
|
Simpler, yes, but as long as the hole is already cut through the
abdominal muscle wall, what they do once inside isn't as critical to the
recovery morbidity. It was my right hemicolectomy that kept me in the
hospital the extra several days, and the hemicolectomy hole was much
bigger than an RRP hole. It was the hole in my abs that I felt for the
next 4-6 weeks, not the traumatized prostate fossa. In my case, the uro
surgeon took a few hours to do his part, and the colon surgeon needed
only 20-30 minutes to do his. As you know and imply, the former is
rooting around in a tight space trying to distinguish and remove bad
meat from good meat, while the latter can essentially spread his work
out in front of himself and snip out fairly discrete parts. It does
leave me wondering, though, how easily they find dozens of lymph nodes.
My point is that since the greatest certain difference between RT and
RRP is in the short term -- the surgery recovery -- one would think that
having to get opened up anyway would probably swing the RP-RT dilemma
towards RP.
I.P. |
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Steph
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 504
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies (xpost)
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"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:R90Nf.110$Ni1.96@fe06.lga...
| Quote: | Steph wrote:
"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:gYSMf.913$F26.884@fe04.lga...
Steve Kramer wrote:
I suspect that if he has colon and prostate cancer and no other mets,
they will cut out the colon tumor and radiate the prostate.
I can't imagine using RT when they must open him up anyway to get the
CC. As long as they're in there, may as well grab the prostate at the
same time and do the pathology. Prostate excision is the more exacting
surgery, especially if nerve sparing is done, but the CC surgery is
arguably the bigger recovery issue simply because it's a bigger zipper
and requires more hospital time.
I.P.
Resection of a colon cancer, especially in the transverse or right colon,
is a MUCH simpler and less morbid surgery than radical prostatectomy
Simpler, yes, but as long as the hole is already cut through the abdominal
muscle wall, what they do once inside isn't as critical to the recovery
morbidity. It was my right hemicolectomy that kept me in the hospital the
extra several days, and the hemicolectomy hole was much bigger than an RRP
hole. It was the hole in my abs that I felt for the next 4-6 weeks, not
the traumatized prostate fossa. In my case, the uro surgeon took a few
hours to do his part, and the colon surgeon needed only 20-30 minutes to
do his. As you know and imply, the former is rooting around in a tight
space trying to distinguish and remove bad meat from good meat, while the
latter can essentially spread his work out in front of himself and snip
out fairly discrete parts. It does leave me wondering, though, how easily
they find dozens of lymph nodes.
My point is that since the greatest certain difference between RT and RRP
is in the short term -- the surgery recovery -- one would think that
having to get opened up anyway would probably swing the RP-RT dilemma
towards RP.
I.P.
|
I'm not a surgeon, but I do know that the appropriate incision for a
colectomy is not the same as the incision for a prostatectomy. Only your
surgeons could answer whether the two procedures could (or should) be done
synchronously |
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Steph
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 504
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies (xpost)
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"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:NR%Mf.103$Ni1.41@fe06.lga...
| Quote: | Steph wrote:
"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:CRSMf.898$F26.873@fe04.lga...
J wrote:
Steve Kramer wrote:
I believe they will
find that your tumor is a prostate cancer tumor in your colon as
opposed to
colon cancer.
How would they know, since they're both adenocarcinomas ?
PC is PC is PC. It's unmistakable (as PC) no matter where it occurs.
I.P.
It's not quite that clear cut.
A poorly diff prostate cancer may be indistinguishable from a poorly diff
colon cancer, if they don't express PSA or CEA respectively
I gotcha; thanks for the clarification. So it's assessed by appearance,
which goes to hell as we near grade 5. I guess the next issue is which
type of CC is involved. Carcinoid CC is pretty unique in its production of
5-HIAA, I believe, and thus more distinguishable from even a grade 5 PC.
I.P.
|
Carcinoid is a rare colon cancer. 99% of colon cancers are plain old colonic
adenoca. CArcinoid does look different histologically, and I doubt many
pathologists would confuse them |
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Steph
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 504
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies (xpost)
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"Steve Kramer" <skramer@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:nd_Mf.110616$tK4.7935@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
| Quote: |
"Steph" <steph@vancouvers.island> wrote in message
news:fGTMf.77178$sa3.14618@pd7tw1no...
A poorly diff prostate cancer may be indistinguishable from a poorly diff
colon cancer, if they don't express PSA or CEA respectively
Mind you, I have not read this anywhere. Nor would I have expected to.
The discovery of the chromozomes in DNA particular to PCa is so new that
the writing of it has probably not extended to a dicsussion of determining
origin. But, I would guess now that the chromozomes have been identified,
it should be a simple process to determine if the DNA taken from a mass is
PCa or CCa.
|
I'm a clinical oncologist, not a researcher, but this sound doubtful. Only a
very few rare conditions have specific chromosomes associated with the
disease. Chronic myeloid leukemia is the classic.
As far as I'm aware, prostate cancer does not.
Sure there may be specific gene expressions associated with prostate cancer,
and prostate cancers may have funny numbers of chromosomes, but that applies
to most cancers |
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I. P. Freely
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies (xpost)
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Steph wrote
| Quote: |
Carcinoid is a rare colon cancer. 99% of colon cancers are plain old colonic
adenoca. CArcinoid does look different histologically, and I doubt many
pathologists would confuse them
|
Tell me about it ... then calculate the odds one active and
healthy-eating person is going to encounter a large and rapidly-growing
carcinoid colon tumor with no mets or symptoms, Gleason 8 PC which saved
his life, and a labyrinthectomy due to Meniere's disease?
I musta PO'd some god somewhere along the line. I hope he's retired
before I try to skate past a reoccurrence.
I.P. |
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I. P. Freely
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject:
Re: Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies (xpost)
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Steph wrote
| Quote: |
I'm not a surgeon, but I do know that the appropriate incision for a
colectomy is not the same as the incision for a prostatectomy. Only your
surgeons could answer whether the two procedures could (or should) be done
synchronously
|
I wasn't speaking hypothetically. I had the R half of my colon and all
of my prostate removed in one surgery 16 months ago. My surgeons didn't
hesitate for a moment to agree to the dual procedure; ya just makes a
longer midline incision (my zipper is about 9" long), do the more
difficult or urgent surgery first, assess the pt, then do the second
procedure next. They even considered a third procedure in my case --
visual/ tactile/ pathological evaluation of my liver for carcinoid mets
-- but decided it wasn't sufficiently accessible to do more than a
cursory palpation. Several other tests had excluded liver involvement,
so they didn't bother to keep cutting.
I.P. |
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Steve Kramer
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:37 am Post subject:
Re: Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies (xpost)
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"Steph" <steph@vancouvers.island> wrote in message
news:%B1Nf.80184$H%4.17093@pd7tw2no...
| Quote: |
"Steve Kramer" <skramer@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:nd_Mf.110616$tK4.7935@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
"Steph" <steph@vancouvers.island> wrote in message
news:fGTMf.77178$sa3.14618@pd7tw1no...
A poorly diff prostate cancer may be indistinguishable from a poorly
diff colon cancer, if they don't express PSA or CEA respectively
Mind you, I have not read this anywhere. Nor would I have expected to.
The discovery of the chromozomes in DNA particular to PCa is so new that
the writing of it has probably not extended to a dicsussion of
determining origin. But, I would guess now that the chromozomes have
been identified, it should be a simple process to determine if the DNA
taken from a mass is PCa or CCa.
I'm a clinical oncologist, not a researcher, but this sound doubtful. Only
a very few rare conditions have specific chromosomes associated with the
disease. Chronic myeloid leukemia is the classic.
|
Good! You can take my idea and make $ Millions!
Just kidding. It's nice to hear from someone with a working knowledge of
such things. I hope Dave is listening. |
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Steph
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 504
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:36 am Post subject:
Re: Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies (xpost)
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"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:244Nf.1155$qz.935@fe02.lga...
| Quote: | Steph wrote
I'm not a surgeon, but I do know that the appropriate incision for a
colectomy is not the same as the incision for a prostatectomy. Only your
surgeons could answer whether the two procedures could (or should) be
done synchronously
I wasn't speaking hypothetically. I had the R half of my colon and all of
my prostate removed in one surgery 16 months ago. My surgeons didn't
hesitate for a moment to agree to the dual procedure; ya just makes a
longer midline incision (my zipper is about 9" long), do the more
difficult or urgent surgery first, assess the pt, then do the second
procedure next. They even considered a third procedure in my case --
visual/ tactile/ pathological evaluation of my liver for carcinoid mets --
but decided it wasn't sufficiently accessible to do more than a cursory
palpation. Several other tests had excluded liver involvement, so they
didn't bother to keep cutting.
I.P.
|
Only in the States! |
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SS
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject:
Re: 'Cabbage may prevent cancer'
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| Quote: | Stockholm - Eating plenty of cabbage, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts and
broccoli may offer protection against cancer of the pancreas, a Swedish
study cited in media on Friday said.
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I believe it's because eating these types of foods increases the pH in
your body to an alkaline state which keeps a person healthy and
prevents many diseases; not just cancer. |
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Ron Peterson
medicine forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject:
Re: 'Cabbage may prevent cancer'
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Juhana Harju wrote:
| Quote: | Ron Peterson wrote:
: It's not a controlled study, so I don't see how they can make the
: claim. It may be that people who are susceptible, can't tolerate
: eating those vegetables.
You make the error of denying any value of epidemiological studies just
because they can not prove any causal relationship. Epidemiological studies
are good pointers, as is this study.
|
I may be commenting early because I don't have the text of the study. I
am likely to believe that cruciferous vegetables are good for people,
but I doubt the reporters conclusion that other vegetables are useless.
--
Ron |
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I. P. Freely
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:23 am Post subject:
Re: Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies (xpost)
|
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Steph wrote:
| Quote: | "I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:244Nf.1155$qz.935@fe02.lga...
Steph wrote
I'm not a surgeon, but I do know that the appropriate incision for a
colectomy is not the same as the incision for a prostatectomy. Only your
surgeons could answer whether the two procedures could (or should) be
done synchronously
I wasn't speaking hypothetically. I had the R half of my colon and all of
my prostate removed in one surgery 16 months ago. My surgeons didn't
hesitate for a moment to agree to the dual procedure; ya just makes a
longer midline incision (my zipper is about 9" long), do the more
difficult or urgent surgery first, assess the pt, then do the second
procedure next. They even considered a third procedure in my case --
visual/ tactile/ pathological evaluation of my liver for carcinoid mets --
but decided it wasn't sufficiently accessible to do more than a cursory
palpation. Several other tests had excluded liver involvement, so they
didn't bother to keep cutting.
I.P.
Only in the States!
|
Why is that? It seemed pretty logical to me, and when I suggested it to
the two surgeons (both oncs) their eyebrows shot up in approval (I think
I even saw enthusiasm for something new and different). I made sure the
surgeons had studied and planned their approach in detail and had passed
it by their oncology review board. Both procedures went by the book with
no surprises.
I.P. |
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J
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 612
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject:
US Malpractice crisis over?
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Steve wrote:
| Quote: | Excerpts from http://www.centerjd.org/air/pr/MMSOFTMARKET.pdf
Recent data from the Council of Independent Agents and Brokers
confirms that the large medical malpractice insurance rate increases
that took hold around the nation in 2001 and 2002 have ended.
The average rate hike for doctors over the past six months has been
zero percent. This is following similar results for the last quarter
of 2004, which saw rates rising only 3%. Rates jumped 63% during the
same quarter of 2002.
This phenomenon is occurring whether or not states enacted
restrictions on patients’ legal rights, such as caps on compensation.
This study explains why. |
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J
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 612
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:45 pm Post subject:
Re: 'Cabbage may prevent cancer'
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David Wright wrote:
| Quote: | In article <1141435380.783008.249950@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
SS <breemorgana@yahoo.com> wrote:
Steph wrote:
What total, utter, childish nonsense.
----------------------------
You know Steph, you are the biggest skeptic/critic/misinformed thing I
have ever had the dissatisfaction of having to interact with.
I think there must be another forum you can wreak havoc upon.
Most (new) people here want information, not someone like you blasting
out any time someone has info you have no clue about.
If you're the one who started up on the "acid bodies cause cancer"
folderol, the cluelessness is your own.
|
Couldn't find it in that string (and others don't seem to be her) in the
archives.
Please remember you're beating up on a cancer patient's wife.
Isn't it better to educate than batter a person?
Here's my understanding. The thread started, with a claim about cabbage vs 3
other vegetables and mentioned pancreatic cancer.
Here's my understanding, diabetes (the web pages don't distinguish which
type) is a risk factor (not a cause, a risk factor) in pancreatic cancer.
I would think most of us know that it's a reach to say that "cabbage may
prevent cancer" as the subject line suggests.
But it's not a reach to say, eat your veggies; that could help (or prevent
diabetes type II) ?
So they've IMO got the horse before the cart.
Further: foods ( and medical conditions) are mentioned in
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003583.htm Urine Ph
and "Your provider may want to modify your urine pH to help prevent kidney
stones.", so why wouldn't people want to know which foods alter the Ph?
Might help them avoid symptoms or worsening of conditions mentioned there
(but not cancer). Won't cure them, but might help.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000521.htm
In addition, acidifying medications such a ascorbic acid may be recommended
to decrease the concentration of bacteria in the urine.
So really this thread should never have been crossposted to
sci.med.diseases.cancer to begin with.
Flame Roman :p
J |
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Robert Cohen
medicine forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject:
Re: Painful bone marrow biopsy
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re: nitric oxide as appropriate anesthesia in bmb?
when i saw the "dentist" reference, i first thought of it
i perceive there are probably "bad side effects" to laughing gas too,
though the stuff worked amazingly the once or twice it was utilized on
me by my dentist |
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