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Kumar
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 870
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 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:19 am Post subject:
Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
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Hello all,
Autoimmunity is thought to be a disease having a negative impact of our
various body parts.
"Immune system defends you. It sees and kills the germs that might hurt
you.
But when the system doesn't work right, this process can cause harm.
Immune cells can mistake your body's own cells as invaders and attack
them. This "friendly fire" can affect almost any part of the body. It
can sometimes affect many parts of the body at once. This is called
autoimmunity (meaning self-immunity). No one knows why the immune
system treats some body parts like germs."
http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/autoimmune/autoimmunity.htm
However I have some doubts; whether so thought Autoimmunity is really a
"always harming disorder" of our system or Can also be a positive
natural defence mechanism of immune system to save our life as a whole
at the cost of some temporary or permanent damages by causing
Autoimmunities?
Let us think about latent infections, cancer or other chronic diseases.
Can it be possible that some damages may take place in form of
Autoimmunities to starve the "disease causing agents" from their
required nutrients, Oxygen to resist or restrict their growth & spread
or to encourage anorexia to withhold intestinal absorptions for this
purpose? Can pancreatic islet cell damages in diabetes, be meant to
save us from hyperinsulinemia's persistant effects? Other autoimmune
diseases can also be thought for some natural body's mechanism hidden
behind these "to save us as a whole at the cost of some".
Best wishes. |
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Don Kirkman
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 726
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:29 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
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It seems to me I heard somewhere that kumar wrote in article
<1119860358.530130.243550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
| Quote: | Autoimmunity is thought to be a disease having a negative impact of our
various body parts.
|
"Thought to be"?
| Quote: | "Immune system defends you. It sees and kills the germs that might hurt
you.
But when the system doesn't work right, this process can cause harm.
Immune cells can mistake your body's own cells as invaders and attack
them. This "friendly fire" can affect almost any part of the body. It
can sometimes affect many parts of the body at once. This is called
autoimmunity (meaning self-immunity). No one knows why the immune
system treats some body parts like germs."
http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/autoimmune/autoimmunity.htm
However I have some doubts; whether so thought Autoimmunity is really a
"always harming disorder" of our system or Can also be a positive
natural defence mechanism of immune system to save our life as a whole
at the cost of some temporary or permanent damages by causing
Autoimmunities?
|
You might want to discuss your doubts with the folks suffering from the
roughly 170 varieties of rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus or fibromyalgia
or some of the other autoimmune diseases. A cardiology group isn't
likely where you'll find experienced opinions.
| Quote: | Let us think about latent infections, cancer or other chronic diseases.
Can it be possible that some damages may take place in form of
Autoimmunities to starve the "disease causing agents" from their
required nutrients, Oxygen to resist or restrict their growth & spread
or to encourage anorexia to withhold intestinal absorptions for this
purpose? Can pancreatic islet cell damages in diabetes, be meant to
save us from hyperinsulinemia's persistant effects? Other autoimmune
diseases can also be thought for some natural body's mechanism hidden
behind these "to save us as a whole at the cost of some".
|
I think many sufferers don't feel thankful for being "saved [. . .] as a
whole at the cost of some" while they die from the actions of their
autoimmune systems. Lupus is often fatal; Crohn's can be fatal; some
forms of rheumatoid arthritis can be fatal.
--
Don Kirkman |
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J
medicine forum addict
Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:46 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
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elgoog wrote:
| Quote: | Don Kirkman wrote:
You might want to discuss your doubts with the folks suffering from the
roughly 170 varieties of rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus or fibromyalgia
or some of the other autoimmune diseases. A cardiology group isn't
likely where you'll find experienced opinions.
Let us think about latent infections, cancer or other chronic diseases.
Can it be possible that some damages may take place in form of
Autoimmunities to starve the "disease causing agents" from their
required nutrients, Oxygen to resist or restrict their growth & spread
or to encourage anorexia to withhold intestinal absorptions for this
purpose? Can pancreatic islet cell damages in diabetes, be meant to
save us from hyperinsulinemia's persistant effects? Other autoimmune
diseases can also be thought for some natural body's mechanism hidden
behind these "to save us as a whole at the cost of some".
I think many sufferers don't feel thankful for being "saved [. . .] as a
whole at the cost of some" while they die from the actions of their
autoimmune systems. Lupus is often fatal; Crohn's can be fatal; some
forms of rheumatoid arthritis can be fatal.
--
Don Kirkman
Excuse me for being so picky today, but "some forms of rheumatoid
arthritis can be fatal?" Really? How about, some forms of RA can
contribute to mortality? Ever seen a death certificate read, cause of
death: RA?
-elgoog, willing to be corrected.
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http://ard.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/47/7/563 |
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elgoog
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 412
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:01 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
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J wrote:
| Quote: | elgoog wrote:
Don Kirkman wrote:
You might want to discuss your doubts with the folks suffering from the
roughly 170 varieties of rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus or fibromyalgia
or some of the other autoimmune diseases. A cardiology group isn't
likely where you'll find experienced opinions.
Let us think about latent infections, cancer or other chronic diseases.
Can it be possible that some damages may take place in form of
Autoimmunities to starve the "disease causing agents" from their
required nutrients, Oxygen to resist or restrict their growth & spread
or to encourage anorexia to withhold intestinal absorptions for this
purpose? Can pancreatic islet cell damages in diabetes, be meant to
save us from hyperinsulinemia's persistant effects? Other autoimmune
diseases can also be thought for some natural body's mechanism hidden
behind these "to save us as a whole at the cost of some".
I think many sufferers don't feel thankful for being "saved [. . .] as a
whole at the cost of some" while they die from the actions of their
autoimmune systems. Lupus is often fatal; Crohn's can be fatal; some
forms of rheumatoid arthritis can be fatal.
--
Don Kirkman
Excuse me for being so picky today, but "some forms of rheumatoid
arthritis can be fatal?" Really? How about, some forms of RA can
contribute to mortality? Ever seen a death certificate read, cause of
death: RA?
-elgoog, willing to be corrected.
http://ard.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/47/7/563
|
Thank you, J!
-elgoog |
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Don Kirkman
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 726
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
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It seems to me I heard somewhere that elgoog wrote in article
<1119906095.254749.175860@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
| Quote: | J wrote:
elgoog wrote:
Don Kirkman wrote:
Let us think about latent infections, cancer or other chronic diseases.
Can it be possible that some damages may take place in form of
Autoimmunities to starve the "disease causing agents" from their
required nutrients, Oxygen to resist or restrict their growth & spread
or to encourage anorexia to withhold intestinal absorptions for this
purpose? Can pancreatic islet cell damages in diabetes, be meant to
save us from hyperinsulinemia's persistant effects? Other autoimmune
diseases can also be thought for some natural body's mechanism hidden
behind these "to save us as a whole at the cost of some".
I think many sufferers don't feel thankful for being "saved [. . .] as a
whole at the cost of some" while they die from the actions of their
autoimmune systems. Lupus is often fatal; Crohn's can be fatal; some
forms of rheumatoid arthritis can be fatal.
Excuse me for being so picky today, but "some forms of rheumatoid
arthritis can be fatal?" Really? How about, some forms of RA can
contribute to mortality? Ever seen a death certificate read, cause of
death: RA?
|
Sometimes picky is good. :-)
I thank you both. That kind of dialog is what this group is for.
--
Don Kirkman |
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outrider
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1155
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:45 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
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Don Kirkman wrote:
| Quote: | It seems to me I heard somewhere that kumar wrote in article
1119860358.530130.243550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
Autoimmunity is thought to be a disease having a negative impact of our
various body parts.
"Thought to be"?
"Immune system defends you. It sees and kills the germs that might hurt
you.
But when the system doesn't work right, this process can cause harm.
Immune cells can mistake your body's own cells as invaders and attack
them. This "friendly fire" can affect almost any part of the body. It
can sometimes affect many parts of the body at once. This is called
autoimmunity (meaning self-immunity). No one knows why the immune
system treats some body parts like germs."
http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/autoimmune/autoimmunity.htm
However I have some doubts; whether so thought Autoimmunity is really a
"always harming disorder" of our system or Can also be a positive
natural defence mechanism of immune system to save our life as a whole
at the cost of some temporary or permanent damages by causing
Autoimmunities?
You might want to discuss your doubts with the folks suffering from the
roughly 170 varieties of rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus or fibromyalgia
or some of the other autoimmune diseases. A cardiology group isn't
likely where you'll find experienced opinions.
|
A cardiology newsgroup is indeed where one can find experienced
opinions on auto-immune disorders. STATINS, taken by almost every
poster here in sci.med.cardiology are proven to cause such disorders,
including an autoimmune hepatitis, lupus, the arthritises and more.
Zee
| Quote: |
Let us think about latent infections, cancer or other chronic diseases.
Can it be possible that some damages may take place in form of
Autoimmunities to starve the "disease causing agents" from their
required nutrients, Oxygen to resist or restrict their growth & spread
or to encourage anorexia to withhold intestinal absorptions for this
purpose? Can pancreatic islet cell damages in diabetes, be meant to
save us from hyperinsulinemia's persistant effects? Other autoimmune
diseases can also be thought for some natural body's mechanism hidden
behind these "to save us as a whole at the cost of some".
I think many sufferers don't feel thankful for being "saved [. . .] as a
whole at the cost of some" while they die from the actions of their
autoimmune systems. Lupus is often fatal; Crohn's can be fatal; some
forms of rheumatoid arthritis can be fatal.
--
Don Kirkman |
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Robert
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1700
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:31 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
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"outrider" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:1119912302.631653.106420@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Don Kirkman wrote:
It seems to me I heard somewhere that kumar wrote in article
1119860358.530130.243550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
Autoimmunity is thought to be a disease having a negative impact of our
various body parts.
"Thought to be"?
"Immune system defends you. It sees and kills the germs that might hurt
you.
But when the system doesn't work right, this process can cause harm.
Immune cells can mistake your body's own cells as invaders and attack
them. This "friendly fire" can affect almost any part of the body. It
can sometimes affect many parts of the body at once. This is called
autoimmunity (meaning self-immunity). No one knows why the immune
system treats some body parts like germs."
http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/autoimmune/autoimmunity.htm
However I have some doubts; whether so thought Autoimmunity is really a
"always harming disorder" of our system or Can also be a positive
natural defence mechanism of immune system to save our life as a whole
at the cost of some temporary or permanent damages by causing
Autoimmunities?
You might want to discuss your doubts with the folks suffering from the
roughly 170 varieties of rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus or fibromyalgia
or some of the other autoimmune diseases. A cardiology group isn't
likely where you'll find experienced opinions.
A cardiology newsgroup is indeed where one can find experienced
opinions on auto-immune disorders. STATINS, taken by almost every
poster here in sci.med.cardiology are proven to cause such disorders,
including an autoimmune hepatitis, lupus, the arthritises and more.
Zee
You guys asked for it. From one rational discussion to this. |
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outrider
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1155
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:37 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
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~Further, I don't think I've ever seen a message in an arthritis
newsgroup from someone on statins--and yet they have the crippling
diseases. ~
As you yourself have just shown, many with those diseases aren't aware
they can be caused or worsened by statin use.
~May we see the peer-reviewed evidence that statins "are proven to
cause such disorders"?~
You'll find more here:
http://www.pubmed.org
http://www.lipitor.com/pi/default.asp,
Musculoskeletal System: Arthritis, leg cramps, bursitis, tenosynovitis,
myasthenia, tendinous contracture, myositis.
Drug-induced lupus-like syndrome associated with severe autoimmune
hepatitis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2765306&dopt=Abstract
Graziadei IW, Obermoser GE, Sepp NT, Erhart KH, Vogel W.
Lupus. 2003;12(5):409-12.
PMID: 12765306 [PubMed - in process]
"Atorvastatin and other members of the statin family are widely used
for the treatment of
hypercholesterolaemia in order to reduce the risk of atherosclerosis
and cardiovascular
disease. Atorvastatin-induced adverse events are mostly mild and only a
few cases of
lupus-like syndrome or severe acute hepatitis have been documented. In
this case report
we describe a patient who developed an atorvastatin-induced severe
autoimmune
hepatitis. In addition, this patient presented with a concomitant
systemic lupus-like
syndrome which has been already described for statins but not in
association with severe
liver disease. Although the drug was immediately withdrawn the disease
persisted and
even deteriorated to a fulminant disease with evidence of acute hepatic
failure. The
patient failed to respond to conventional immunosuppression with
corticosteroids and
azathioprine. Only the introduction of intense immunosuppressive
therapy, as used in
solid organ transplantation, led to a complete and sustained recovery
of the patient.
Interestingly, the patient was HLA DR3- and HLA DR4-positive, which are
well-known
genetic factors associated with autoimmune diseases. This case is the
first report of a
drug-induced lupus-likesyndrome concomitant with a severe autoimmune
hepatitis in a
genetically predisposed patient."
Noel B, Panizzon RG.
Lupus-like syndrome associated with statin therapy.
Dermatology. 2004;208(3):276-7.
PMID: 15118389 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
"Statins are among the most widely prescribed drugs. An increasing
number of lupus-like
syndrome has recently been reported with these lipid-lowering agents.
We describe a new
case associated with simvastatin therapy. The presence of anti-dsDNA
antibodies in the
serum is for the first time reported confirming that statins may also
induce a systemic
autoimmune reaction. Statin-induced lupus-like syndrome is
characterized by the long
delay between the beginning of therapy and the skin eruption.
Antinuclear antibodies
may persist for many months after drug discontinuation. The causal
relationship may be
therefore difficult to establish, and probably many cases are
unrecognized. Early diagnosis may avoid unnecessary immunosuppressive
therapy. Copyright 2004 S. Karger AG, Basel"
Lantuejoul S, Brambilla E, Brambilla C, Devouassoux G.
Bannwarth B, Miremont G, Papapietro PM.
Lupuslike syndrome associated with simvastatin.
Arch Intern Med. 1992 May;152(5):1093. No abstract available.
PMID: 1510761 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Goli AK, Goli SA, Byrd RP Jr, Roy TM.
Abstract Simvastatin-induced lactic acidosis: a rare adverse reaction?
Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2002 Oct;72(4):461-4.
PMID: 12386648 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Atzeni F, Marrazza MG, Sarzi-Puttini P, Carrabba M.
Free Full Text [Drug-induced lupus erythematosus]
Reumatismo. 2003;55(3):147-54. Review. Italian.
PMID: 14513113 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Noel B.
No abstract Risks and benefits of statins in lupus erythematosus.
Arch Intern Med. 2004 Jan 12;164(1):107-8. No abstract available.
PMID: 14718334 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Chazerain P, Hayem G, Hamza S, Best C, Ziza JM.
Abstract Four cases of tendinopathy in patients on statin therapy.
Joint Bone Spine. 2001 Oct;68(5):430-3.
PMID: 11707010 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Khosla R, Butman AN, Hammer DF.
Abstract Simvastatin-induced lupus erythematosus.
South Med J. 1998 Sep;91(9):873-4.
PMID: 9743064 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Rajabally YA, Varakantam V, Abbott RJ.
Abstract Disorder resembling Guillain-Barre syndrome on initiation of
statin therapy.
Muscle Nerve. 2004 Nov;30(5):663-6.
PMID: 15389662 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Ahmad A, Fletcher MT, Roy TM.
Abstract Simvastatin-induced lupus-like syndrome.
Tenn Med. 2000 Jan;93(1):21-2.
PMID: 10628262 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] |
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Robert
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1700
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:12 am Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
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"kumar" <lordshiva5753@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119932264.031927.164100@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I don't know what you mean by the cause is unkown. There are associations of
autoimmune hemolytic anemia AIHA with lymphoproliferative disorders.
Sometimes AIHA can herald a lymphoma a few years ahead of time.
Some medications may act as haptens with antibodies directed to red cell
antigens or the drug itself found on the red cell resulting in red cell
destruction. Most of these are antibiotics such cephalosporins or
hypertension medication.
Sometimes there is an infection involved with antibodies forming against red
cell antigens. Infectious mono, syphilis, atypical pneumonia are examples.
Each diagnosis of AIHA, and I did one yesterday requires a medication record
and history. This patient was on three different antibiotics and had
hepatitis B.
Of all the AIHA workups that I have done the past 30 years, none involved
statins.
| Quote: |
"Such diseases as rheumatoid arthritis, connective tissue disorders,
chronic infection, trauma or malignancy are commonly confused with mild
iron deficiency anemia.
There is no confusion as the iron studies are distinctive. A percent |
saturation of less than 5 is iron deficiency anemia. The ferritin level is
normal in anemia of chronic disease and a CRP should always be done to
interpret the ferritin to rule out inflammation.
RA can cause felty's syndrome with neutropenia and lymphocytosis.
What is confused is thalasemia and iron deficiency anemia which on smear
look similar.
Some of the cancers show a leukoerythrocytosis of nucleated red blood cells
with immature white cells as bone marrow is being replaced by cancer cells.
They also have low platelet counts which is the opposite of iron deficiency
with high platelets and a high red cell distribution width.
Instead, they are related to anemia of chronic
| Quote: | disease. The body will naturally withhold iron from carcinogenic or
infectious entities because of their need for iron. In these cases,
iron upplementation can actually contribute to the spread of disease.
"http://www.innvista.com/health/ailm...ias/irondef.htm
|
Iron studies are important and clincial assessment. Sometimes iron is given
and the reticulocytosis is followed. These young cells are counted to see if
the iron is working or if no response is happening such as iron lock out.
| Quote: |
Can't these anemias be autoimmune oriented but still for positive
defences?
|
Anemia of chronic disease is not autoimmune unless you consider all human
physiology immune in nature. |
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Kumar
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 870
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:59 am Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
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"I don't know what you mean by the cause is unkown."
It is mentioned in link provoded by me.
"Anemia of chronic disease is not autoimmune unless you consider all
human
physiology immune in nature."
Btw, When a person is capable to have all the needed foods & other
required inputs, Can variations or most variations in his CBC test
indicate involvement of immune system or not--directly or indirectly?? |
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Don Kirkman
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 726
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
|
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It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article
<1119919072.704977.293910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
| Quote: | ~Further, I don't think I've ever seen a message in an arthritis
newsgroup from someone on statins--and yet they have the crippling
diseases. ~
As you yourself have just shown, many with those diseases aren't aware
they can be caused or worsened by statin use.
|
You do read English, don't you? These patients AREN'T ON STATINS and
never have been, and yet they're bedridden, in wheelchairs, on
disability or unable to do routine daily activities because of
autoimmune diseases.
| Quote: | ~May we see the peer-reviewed evidence that statins "are proven to
cause such disorders"?~
|
May we see peer-reviewed evidence that statins "are **proven** to cause
such disorders? Discussion below.
One of the first articles to come up with a search on "statins
+autoimmune" was this one:
[Begin]
: Autoimmun Rev. 2005 Mar;4(3):123-9. Related Articles, Links
Statins and autoimmune diseases.
Gurevich VS, Shovman O, Slutzky L, Meroni PL, Shoenfeld Y.
Mechnicov's State Medical Academy, The Center of Atherosclerosis and
Lipid Disorders, Tel-Hashomer, Israel.
Inhibitors of 3-hydroxy-3methylglytaryl coenzyme A (HMG-CoA) reductase
or statins are effective lipid lowering drugs widely used in
cardiovascular disease. In the recent years, pleotropic effects of
statins have been reported, which include anti-inflammatory and
immunomodulatory properties. This review discusses the anti-inflammatory
and immunomodulatory roles of statins and their possible use for the
treatment of other inflammatory diseases or conditions with the
involvement of the immune system.
PMID: 15823497 [PubMed - in process]
[End]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15823497&query_hl=1
| Quote: | http://www.lipitor.com/pi/default.asp
|
Oddly, that link didn't lead me to what you cite here (moved down to
allow for this comment). What it did lead to was an excellent objective
discussion of lipitor, its biochemical action, some study results,
possible issues with specific populations, and prescribing guidelines. A
word search of the article fails to find either "immune" or
"autoimmune."
Actually this seems to come from the link below, not the one just above.
Did you read the articles, or did you rely on the abstracts? My
comments below are based on the abstracts since I don't have reasonable
access to the full articles.
| Quote: | Musculoskeletal System: Arthritis, leg cramps, bursitis, tenosynovitis,
myasthenia, tendinous contracture, myositis.
Drug-induced lupus-like syndrome associated with severe autoimmune
hepatitis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2765306&dopt=Abstract
Graziadei IW, Obermoser GE, Sepp NT, Erhart KH, Vogel W.
Lupus. 2003;12(5):409-12.
PMID: 12765306 [PubMed - in process]
|
[Reformatted!]
| Quote: | "Atorvastatin and other members of the statin family are widely
used for the treatment of hypercholesterolaemia in order to
reduce the risk of atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease.
Atorvastatin-induced adverse events are mostly mild and only a
few cases of lupus-like syndrome or severe acute hepatitis have
been documented. In this case report we describe a patient who
developed an atorvastatin-induced severe autoimmune hepatitis.
In addition, this patient presented with a concomitant systemic
lupus-like syndrome which has been already described for statins
but not in association with severe liver disease. Although the
drug was immediately withdrawn the disease persisted and even
deteriorated to a fulminant disease with evidence of acute
hepatic failure. The patient failed to respond to conventional
immunosuppression with corticosteroids and azathioprine. Only
the introduction of intense immunosuppressive therapy, as used
in solid organ transplantation, led to a complete and sustained
recovery of the patient. Interestingly, the patient was HLA
DR3- and HLA DR4-positive, which are well-known genetic factors
associated with autoimmune diseases. This case is the first
report of a drug-induced lupus-likesyndrome concomitant with a
severe autoimmune hepatitis in a genetically predisposed
patient." Noel B, Panizzon RG. Lupus-like syndrome associated
with statin therapy. Dermatology. 2004;208(3):276-7. PMID:
15118389 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
|
You did read this, I assume. It discusses one patient; it is not a
study, and it does not support a blanket statement that "STATINS, taken
by almost every poster here in sci.med.cardiology are proven to cause
such disorders, including an autoimmune hepatitis, lupus, the
arthritises and more."
| Quote: | Bannwarth B, Miremont G, Papapietro PM.
Lupuslike syndrome associated with simvastatin.
Arch Intern Med. 1992 May;152(5):1093. No abstract available.
PMID: 1510761 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
|
No abstract, so no further information.
| Quote: | Goli AK, Goli SA, Byrd RP Jr, Roy TM.
Abstract Simvastatin-induced lactic acidosis: a rare adverse reaction?
Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2002 Oct;72(4):461-4.
PMID: 12386648 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
|
Is lactic acidosis an autoimmune disorder?
| Quote: | Atzeni F, Marrazza MG, Sarzi-Puttini P, Carrabba M.
Free Full Text [Drug-induced lupus erythematosus]
Reumatismo. 2003;55(3):147-54. Review. Italian.
PMID: 14513113 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
|
Interesting, but where's the statin connection?
[Begin]
Atzeni F, Marrazza MG, Sarzi-Puttini P, Carrabba M.
Unita Operativa di Reumatologia, Universita Ospedale L. Sacco, Milano,
Italia. atzenifabiola@hotmail.com
Drug-induced lupus is a syndrome which share symptoms and laboratory
characteristics with the idiopathic systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE).
The list of medications implicated as etiologic agents in drug-induced
lupus continues to grow. The terms used for this condition are
lupus-like syndrome, drug-induced lupus erythematosus (DILE) and drug
related lupus. More than 80 drugs have been associated with DILE. The
first case of DILE was reported in 1945 and associated with sulfadiazin.
In 1953 it was reported that DILE was related to the use of hydralazine.
Drugs responsible for the development of DILE can divided into three
groups, but the list of these drugs is quite long because new drugs are
included yearly in the list. The syndrome is characterised by
arthralgia, myalgia, pleurisy, rash and fever in association with
antinuclear antibodies in the serum. Recognition of DILE is important
because it usually reverts within a few weeks after stopping the drug.
[End]
Note that true autoimmune lupus does NOT revert.
| Quote: | "Statins are among the
most widely prescribed drugs. An increasing number of lupus-like
syndrome has recently been reported with these lipid-lowering
agents. We describe a new case associated with simvastatin
therapy. The presence of anti-dsDNA antibodies in the serum is
for the first time reported confirming that statins may also
induce a systemic autoimmune reaction. Statin-induced lupus-
like syndrome is characterized by the long delay between the
beginning of therapy and the skin eruption. Antinuclear
antibodies may persist for many months after drug
discontinuation. The causal relationship may be therefore
difficult to establish, and probably many cases are
unrecognized. Early diagnosis may avoid unnecessary
immunosuppressive therapy. Copyright 2004 S. Karger AG, Basel"
Lantuejoul S, Brambilla E, Brambilla C, Devouassoux G.
|
I must have missed the link for the above article, so I can't comment on
the context or the findings. It is clear, though, that the conclusion
is "statins may also induce a systemic autoimmune reaction," not that
they invariably do.
| Quote: | Noel B.
No abstract Risks and benefits of statins in lupus erythematosus.
Arch Intern Med. 2004 Jan 12;164(1):107-8. No abstract available.
PMID: 14718334 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
|
No abstract.
| Quote: | Chazerain P, Hayem G, Hamza S, Best C, Ziza JM.
Abstract Four cases of tendinopathy in patients on statin therapy.
Joint Bone Spine. 2001 Oct;68(5):430-3.
PMID: 11707010 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
|
Four cases of tendon involvement, all of which resolved a few months
after discontinuing statins. " Although most patients tolerate statins
extremely well, a few experience side effects requiring treatment
discontinuation. Reported musculoskeletal side effects include myalgia
and a few cases of rhabdomyolysis and polymyositis. Induced lupus and
peripheral neuropathy are exceedingly rare."
| Quote: | Khosla R, Butman AN, Hammer DF.
Abstract Simvastatin-induced lupus erythematosus.
South Med J. 1998 Sep;91(9):873-4.
PMID: 9743064 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
|
"We report the case of a 79-year-old man who had onset of fatigue,
myalgia, and pleuritic chest pain 3 months after initiation of therapy
with simvastatin. He had signs of pleuropericarditis due to
simvastatin-induced lupus erythematosus. This should alert clinicians to
this possible adverse effect of simvastatin and other statins."
Again, induced lupus is not the real thing; it resolves when the
inducing agent is removed.
| Quote: | Rajabally YA, Varakantam V, Abbott RJ.
Abstract Disorder resembling Guillain-Barre syndrome on initiation of
statin therapy.
Muscle Nerve. 2004 Nov;30(5):663-6.
PMID: 15389662 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
|
"We report a disorder resembling Guillain-Barre syndrome, occurring on
initiation of simvastatin, in a 58-year-old man, who had experienced a
similar but milder episode after starting pravastatin 6 months earlier.
This case suggests that acute polyradiculoneuropathy may represent a
rare but serious side-effect of statin treatment. It also raises the
issue of the pathophysiology of acute neuropathy on statin exposure,
with a hypersensitivity reaction resulting in an immune-mediated process
being possible instead of the hypothesized mitochondrial dysfunction in
chronic cases."
This one case *raises a question* about nerve damage from statins,
specifically the issue that statin exposure *may* involve an
immune-mediated process rather than some other process. Again, we see a
suggestion that an issue be researched, not a statement of causality.
| Quote: | Ahmad A, Fletcher MT, Roy TM.
Abstract Simvastatin-induced lupus-like syndrome.
Tenn Med. 2000 Jan;93(1):21-2.
PMID: 10628262 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
|
"The 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A (HMG-CoA) reductase
inhibitors are widely used as cholesterol lowering agents that have an
acceptable safety profile. As a group, this class of drugs has been
associated with few immunologic reactions. Simvastatin (Zocor) has been
linked to three cases of drug-induced lupus-like syndrome. We report the
case of an additional patient who developed pleurisy and arthralgia
after he started taking this low-density lipoprotein and
cholesterol-lowering agent."
IMO you failed to make your case. Your citations discuss conditions
known long before statins were available, provide evidence of conditions
caused by various agents including (by inference, in some cases)
statins, report conditions that resolve when statins are stopped, and
include very little direct linkage to the autoimmune diseases.
--
Don Kirkman |
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|
|
Don Kirkman
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 726
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
|
|
|
It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article
<1119993371.428133.28080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
| Quote: | Don Kirkman wrote:
It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article
1119919072.704977.293910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
~Further, I don't think I've ever seen a message in an arthritis
newsgroup from someone on statins--and yet they have the crippling
diseases. ~
As you yourself have just shown, many with those diseases aren't aware
they can be caused or worsened by statin use.
You do read English, don't you?
These patients AREN'T ON STATINS and
never have been, and yet they're bedridden, in wheelchairs, on
disability or unable to do routine daily activities because of
autoimmune diseases.
You can prove that with each and every poster at the auto-immune
disorder newsgroups, and each and every person posting to smc who has
taken a statin (and been told their new onset, or worsening arthritis,
cannot possibly be caused by statins?) You cannot even prove statins
have not affected your own arthritis, as long as you continue taking
them.
|
I don't begin to understand what you're saying. Is this a question
you're asking me, or are you stating your assumptions leading to your
restatement of the issue?
BTW, what makes you think I have arthritis?
| Quote: | And even if you could how would that obviate that *some* people, as
these studies show, can have statin-induced auto-immune diseases. And
*some* of those will not recover. For if you are willing to accpept
that the *one* person who is the case study has recovered from that,
then you have de facto accepted this exists.
|
As many have said here many times, no one argues that there are not
*some* patients who have bad effects from statins. What I and others
argue again is your two continual arguments, that statins almost
invariably cause bad effects and that having bad diseases probably
implies that the patient is on statins. Both of those are simply
illogical.
[Balance snipped to save endangered electrons]
--
Don Kirkman |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
outrider
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1155
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
|
|
|
Don Kirkman wrote:
| Quote: | It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article
1119993371.428133.28080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
Don Kirkman wrote:
It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article
1119919072.704977.293910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
~Further, I don't think I've ever seen a message in an arthritis
newsgroup from someone on statins--and yet they have the crippling
diseases. ~
As you yourself have just shown, many with those diseases aren't aware
they can be caused or worsened by statin use.
You do read English, don't you?
These patients AREN'T ON STATINS and
never have been, and yet they're bedridden, in wheelchairs, on
disability or unable to do routine daily activities because of
autoimmune diseases.
You can prove that with each and every poster at the auto-immune
disorder newsgroups, and each and every person posting to smc who has
taken a statin (and been told their new onset, or worsening arthritis,
cannot possibly be caused by statins?) You cannot even prove statins
have not affected your own arthritis, as long as you continue taking
them.
I don't begin to understand what you're saying. Is this a question
you're asking me, or are you stating your assumptions leading to your
restatement of the issue?
BTW, what makes you think I have arthritis?
And even if you could how would that obviate that *some* people, as
these studies show, can have statin-induced auto-immune diseases. And
*some* of those will not recover. For if you are willing to accpept
that the *one* person who is the case study has recovered from that,
then you have de facto accepted this exists.
As many have said here many times, no one argues that there are not
*some* patients who have bad effects from statins. What I and others
argue again is your two continual arguments, that statins almost
invariably cause bad effects and that having bad diseases probably
implies that the patient is on statins. Both of those are simply
illogical.
[Balance snipped to save endangered electrons]
--
Don Kirkman
|
According to PFIZER's physician prescribing information and several but
not all Medline citations statins cause auto-immune disorders.
Your argument is with Pfizer, not with me.
Zee |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
listener
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 617
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
|
|
|
Don Kirkman <donkirk@covad.net> wrote in
news:o8m3c19eu7aihhj29ac6vh5u478g2cgfrp@4ax.com:
| Quote: | It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article
1119993371.428133.28080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
Don Kirkman wrote:
It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article
1119919072.704977.293910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
~Further, I don't think I've ever seen a message in an arthritis
newsgroup from someone on statins--and yet they have the crippling
diseases. ~
As you yourself have just shown, many with those diseases aren't
aware
they can be caused or worsened by statin use.
You do read English, don't you?
These patients AREN'T ON STATINS and
never have been, and yet they're bedridden, in wheelchairs, on
disability or unable to do routine daily activities because of
autoimmune diseases.
You can prove that with each and every poster at the auto-immune
disorder newsgroups, and each and every person posting to smc who has
taken a statin (and been told their new onset, or worsening arthritis,
cannot possibly be caused by statins?) You cannot even prove statins
have not affected your own arthritis, as long as you continue taking
them.
I don't begin to understand what you're saying. Is this a question
you're asking me, or are you stating your assumptions leading to your
restatement of the issue?
BTW, what makes you think I have arthritis?
And even if you could how would that obviate that *some* people, as
these studies show, can have statin-induced auto-immune diseases. And
*some* of those will not recover. For if you are willing to accpept
that the *one* person who is the case study has recovered from that,
then you have de facto accepted this exists.
As many have said here many times, no one argues that there are not
*some* patients who have bad effects from statins. What I and others
argue again is your two continual arguments, that statins almost
invariably cause bad effects and that having bad diseases probably
implies that the patient is on statins. Both of those are simply
illogical.
[Balance snipped to save endangered electrons]
|
Engaging zee is like trying to cup water in your hands. It constantly
changes shape and eventually runs through your hand. All your left with
is a wet hand.
I think she's asking you to prove a negative, but who the heck really
knows?
L. |
|
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|
|
Kumar
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 870
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:53 pm Post subject:
Re: Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
|
|
|
"Is lactic acidosis an autoimmune disorder? "
It is very interesting question to check possible link of autoimunity
with LA. In some autoimmune type of anemias, High serum LDH is
indicated. |
|
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