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| Author |
Message |
Jason
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1120
|
 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:01 pm Post subject:
Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
I continue to learn more and more about statins as a result of this book:
"What You Must Know about Statin Drugs and their Natural Alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
I encourage you to buy it if you take statins.
One question came up about a week ago in this newsgroup. I will now
attempt to answer that question.
Someone posted a message indicating that they stopped taking statins as a
result of muscle pains but planned to start taking the same statins at the
same dosage levels since her chol. levels were really high.
The question that was asked was:
What will happen to this person if she keeps taking the statins for
several years while having muscle pains during those same several years?
I have downloaded reports from the medlineplus web site related to
Rhabdomyolysis and Acute Tubular Necrosis
Two of the symptoms of Rhabdomyolysis are MUSCLE STIFFNESS or ACHING (myalgia).
Two the symptoms of Acute Tubular Necrosis are JOINT PAIN AND FLANK PAIN.
Such a person could eventually develop one of these diseases. It's also
possible that this person might not ever develop any of these diseases but
would just have to learn to live with muscle pains for as long as she
takes statins.
My advice to this person is to see your doctor and discuss options since
your muscle pains could mean that you may develop one of the diseases
mentioned above.
I am not a doctor or a medical expert.
I welcome your comments.
Jason
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. |
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Bill
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 849
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:20 am Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1006051301500001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
| Quote: |
I continue to learn more and more about statins as a result of this book:
"What You Must Know about Statin Drugs and their Natural Alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
I encourage you to buy it if you take statins.
One question came up about a week ago in this newsgroup. I will now
attempt to answer that question.
Someone posted a message indicating that they stopped taking statins as a
result of muscle pains but planned to start taking the same statins at the
same dosage levels since her chol. levels were really high.
The question that was asked was:
What will happen to this person if she keeps taking the statins for
several years while having muscle pains during those same several years?
I have downloaded reports from the medlineplus web site related to
Rhabdomyolysis and Acute Tubular Necrosis
Two of the symptoms of Rhabdomyolysis are MUSCLE STIFFNESS or ACHING
(myalgia).
Two the symptoms of Acute Tubular Necrosis are JOINT PAIN AND FLANK PAIN.
Such a person could eventually develop one of these diseases. It's also
possible that this person might not ever develop any of these diseases but
would just have to learn to live with muscle pains for as long as she
takes statins.
My advice to this person is to see your doctor and discuss options since
your muscle pains could mean that you may develop one of the diseases
mentioned above.
I am not a doctor or a medical expert.
I welcome your comments.
Jason
|
You make it sound like there is a reasonable chance of getting Rhabdomyolysis.
To be objective you should point out that it is pretty rare.
Also, it is not true that muscle pain never goes away for any patient.
Also, why are you asking this? You come across as trying to bad mouth statins
as much as possible without actually lying. Which is what the author of the
book was doing on the back cover as I pointed out.
Bill
| Quote: | --
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
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Jason
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1120
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
In article <Igwqe.9359$_A5.5095@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>, "Bill"
<xxx@yy.zz> wrote:
| Quote: | "Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1006051301500001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
I continue to learn more and more about statins as a result of this book:
"What You Must Know about Statin Drugs and their Natural Alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
I encourage you to buy it if you take statins.
One question came up about a week ago in this newsgroup. I will now
attempt to answer that question.
Someone posted a message indicating that they stopped taking statins as a
result of muscle pains but planned to start taking the same statins at the
same dosage levels since her chol. levels were really high.
The question that was asked was:
What will happen to this person if she keeps taking the statins for
several years while having muscle pains during those same several years?
I have downloaded reports from the medlineplus web site related to
Rhabdomyolysis and Acute Tubular Necrosis
Two of the symptoms of Rhabdomyolysis are MUSCLE STIFFNESS or ACHING
(myalgia).
Two the symptoms of Acute Tubular Necrosis are JOINT PAIN AND FLANK PAIN.
Such a person could eventually develop one of these diseases. It's also
possible that this person might not ever develop any of these diseases but
would just have to learn to live with muscle pains for as long as she
takes statins.
My advice to this person is to see your doctor and discuss options since
your muscle pains could mean that you may develop one of the diseases
mentioned above.
I am not a doctor or a medical expert.
I welcome your comments.
Jason
You make it sound like there is a reasonable chance of getting Rhabdomyolysis.
To be objective you should point out that it is pretty rare.
Also, it is not true that muscle pain never goes away for any patient.
Also, why are you asking this? You come across as trying to bad mouth statins
as much as possible without actually lying. Which is what the author of the
book was doing on the back cover as I pointed out.
Bill
|
Bill,
I realize that Rhad. is rare. Ebola is also rare. However, hundreds of
people do have Rhad. and many of them would not presently have the disease
if they had never taken statins. I don't believe that you read my post
very well. I told the person that she would continue to have muscle pains
FOR AS LONG AS SHE TAKES STATINS. If she keeps taking the present statin
that she is now taking at the same dosage level--she will keep having
muscle pains since she had those same muscle pains the last time. It's my
guess that the muscle pains would go away if she stopped taking statins
until she can see her doctor.
There are treatment options to prevent her from having those muscle pains.
Her doctor should already know those treatment options. There are also
lots of treatment options in the book that was mentioned in my post. I
believe that statins are wonderful medications. However, if anyone
develops muscle pains--they should see their doctors for treatment
options. In my case, I have decided to stop taking statins until I see my
doctor. I may start taking low dose statins in a couple of months. The
author of the book that I mentioned in my post has many positive and
negative things to say about statins. He believes that all doctors should
start their patients with a very low dose of statins. Many doctors start
with a high dose of statins which causes lots of people to develop side
effects.
Jason
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. |
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Sharon Hope
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 752
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
Bill,
Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of
muscle pain? Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to intimidate, so
others won't post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about adverse
effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom
Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open discussion, just
because it addresses statin side effects? Is there some bonus for keeping
the numbers low in the hits returned by the pharmco webcrawlers?
Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity of
rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason was addressing
the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient already exhibiting
statin myopathy. Rhabdo, by the way IS a result of statin myopathy.
It is quite reasonable to assume that there is enough of a chance for a
paitient who is already exhibiting statin myopathy to go into rhabomyolysis,
however rare it is in the general population. Did you also chastize the
AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of muscle pain?
After all, even Scott Grundy, the all-time statin cheerleader and apologist,
and acceptor of funding from all statin pharmcos, himself wrote the
following in the
ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory
on the Use and Safety of Statins
:
"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common
causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation
in activity for persons who experience these symptoms
during combination therapy.
Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate
if the patient is on combination therapy) if a CK greater
than 10 times the ULN is encountered in a patient with
muscle soreness, tenderness, or pain.
If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain with either no CK elevation or a moderate elevation (3
to 10 times the ULN), follow the patient's symptoms and
CK levels weekly until there is no longer medical concern or
symptoms worsen to the situation described previously (at
which point therapy should be discontinued). For patients
who develop muscle discomfort and/or weakness and who
also have progressive elevations of CK on serial measurements,
either a reduction of statin dose or a temporary
discontinuation may be prudent. A decision can then be
made whether or when to reinstitute statin therapy."
What possible reason could you have to attempt to intimidate the reasonable
discussion about a common concern?
What makes you think that your biased and slanted and entirely irrational
opinion of Dr. Cohen's fine book is of interest here? Who designated you as
the official mind reader of top-selling physicians who just might be
answering a large public outcry and need to know as 'bad mouthing'?
Seems you may have mistaken a look in the mirror for the back cover of Dr.
Cohen's EXCELLENT book.
"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:Igwqe.9359$_A5.5095@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
| Quote: |
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1006051301500001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
I continue to learn more and more about statins as a result of this book:
"What You Must Know about Statin Drugs and their Natural Alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
I encourage you to buy it if you take statins.
One question came up about a week ago in this newsgroup. I will now
attempt to answer that question.
Someone posted a message indicating that they stopped taking statins as a
result of muscle pains but planned to start taking the same statins at
the
same dosage levels since her chol. levels were really high.
The question that was asked was:
What will happen to this person if she keeps taking the statins for
several years while having muscle pains during those same several years?
I have downloaded reports from the medlineplus web site related to
Rhabdomyolysis and Acute Tubular Necrosis
Two of the symptoms of Rhabdomyolysis are MUSCLE STIFFNESS or ACHING
(myalgia).
Two the symptoms of Acute Tubular Necrosis are JOINT PAIN AND FLANK PAIN.
Such a person could eventually develop one of these diseases. It's also
possible that this person might not ever develop any of these diseases
but
would just have to learn to live with muscle pains for as long as she
takes statins.
My advice to this person is to see your doctor and discuss options since
your muscle pains could mean that you may develop one of the diseases
mentioned above.
I am not a doctor or a medical expert.
I welcome your comments.
Jason
You make it sound like there is a reasonable chance of getting
Rhabdomyolysis.
To be objective you should point out that it is pretty rare.
Also, it is not true that muscle pain never goes away for any patient.
Also, why are you asking this? You come across as trying to bad mouth
statins as much as possible without actually lying. Which is what the
author of the book was doing on the back cover as I pointed out.
Bill
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
|
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| Back to top |
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outrider
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1155
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
There is a poster currently on group who listened to Bill last year and
owing to his convincing argument of the relative safety of statins,
disregarded your and my advice, and has now returned asking about
serious statin adverse effects, including myopathy and peripheral
neuropathy.
Sharon Hope wrote:
| Quote: | Bill,
Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of
muscle pain? Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to intimidate, so
others won't post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about adverse
effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom
Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open discussion, just
because it addresses statin side effects? Is there some bonus for keeping
the numbers low in the hits returned by the pharmco webcrawlers?
Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity of
rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason was addressing
the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient already exhibiting
statin myopathy. Rhabdo, by the way IS a result of statin myopathy.
It is quite reasonable to assume that there is enough of a chance for a
paitient who is already exhibiting statin myopathy to go into rhabomyolysis,
however rare it is in the general population. Did you also chastize the
AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of muscle pain?
After all, even Scott Grundy, the all-time statin cheerleader and apologist,
and acceptor of funding from all statin pharmcos, himself wrote the
following in the
ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory
on the Use and Safety of Statins
:
"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common
causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation
in activity for persons who experience these symptoms
during combination therapy.
Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate
if the patient is on combination therapy) if a CK greater
than 10 times the ULN is encountered in a patient with
muscle soreness, tenderness, or pain.
If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain with either no CK elevation or a moderate elevation (3
to 10 times the ULN), follow the patient's symptoms and
CK levels weekly until there is no longer medical concern or
symptoms worsen to the situation described previously (at
which point therapy should be discontinued). For patients
who develop muscle discomfort and/or weakness and who
also have progressive elevations of CK on serial measurements,
either a reduction of statin dose or a temporary
discontinuation may be prudent. A decision can then be
made whether or when to reinstitute statin therapy."
What possible reason could you have to attempt to intimidate the reasonable
discussion about a common concern?
What makes you think that your biased and slanted and entirely irrational
opinion of Dr. Cohen's fine book is of interest here? Who designated you as
the official mind reader of top-selling physicians who just might be
answering a large public outcry and need to know as 'bad mouthing'?
Seems you may have mistaken a look in the mirror for the back cover of Dr.
Cohen's EXCELLENT book.
"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:Igwqe.9359$_A5.5095@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1006051301500001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
I continue to learn more and more about statins as a result of this book:
"What You Must Know about Statin Drugs and their Natural Alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
I encourage you to buy it if you take statins.
One question came up about a week ago in this newsgroup. I will now
attempt to answer that question.
Someone posted a message indicating that they stopped taking statins as a
result of muscle pains but planned to start taking the same statins at
the
same dosage levels since her chol. levels were really high.
The question that was asked was:
What will happen to this person if she keeps taking the statins for
several years while having muscle pains during those same several years?
I have downloaded reports from the medlineplus web site related to
Rhabdomyolysis and Acute Tubular Necrosis
Two of the symptoms of Rhabdomyolysis are MUSCLE STIFFNESS or ACHING
(myalgia).
Two the symptoms of Acute Tubular Necrosis are JOINT PAIN AND FLANK PAIN.
Such a person could eventually develop one of these diseases. It's also
possible that this person might not ever develop any of these diseases
but
would just have to learn to live with muscle pains for as long as she
takes statins.
My advice to this person is to see your doctor and discuss options since
your muscle pains could mean that you may develop one of the diseases
mentioned above.
I am not a doctor or a medical expert.
I welcome your comments.
Jason
You make it sound like there is a reasonable chance of getting
Rhabdomyolysis.
To be objective you should point out that it is pretty rare.
Also, it is not true that muscle pain never goes away for any patient.
Also, why are you asking this? You come across as trying to bad mouth
statins as much as possible without actually lying. Which is what the
author of the book was doing on the back cover as I pointed out.
Bill
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
|
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William Wagner
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 809
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
In article <1118526693.233449.257890@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"zee" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote:
| Quote: | There is a poster currently on group who listened to Bill last year and
owing to his convincing argument of the relative safety of statins,
disregarded your and my advice, and has now returned asking about
serious statin adverse effects, including myopathy and peripheral
neuropathy.
Sharon Hope wrote:
Bill,
Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of
muscle pain? Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to intimidate, so
others won't post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about adverse
effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom
Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open discussion, just
because it addresses statin side effects? Is there some bonus for keeping
the numbers low in the hits returned by the pharmco webcrawlers?
Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity of
rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason was addressing
the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient already exhibiting
statin myopathy. Rhabdo, by the way IS a result of statin myopathy.
It is quite reasonable to assume that there is enough of a chance for a
paitient who is already exhibiting statin myopathy to go into rhabomyolysis,
however rare it is in the general population. Did you also chastize the
AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of muscle pain?
After all, even Scott Grundy, the all-time statin cheerleader and apologist,
and acceptor of funding from all statin pharmcos, himself wrote the
following in the
ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory
on the Use and Safety of Statins
:
"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common
causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation
in activity for persons who experience these symptoms
during combination therapy.
Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate
if the patient is on combination therapy) if a CK greater
than 10 times the ULN is encountered in a patient with
muscle soreness, tenderness, or pain.
If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain with either no CK elevation or a moderate elevation (3
to 10 times the ULN), follow the patient's symptoms and
CK levels weekly until there is no longer medical concern or
symptoms worsen to the situation described previously (at
which point therapy should be discontinued). For patients
who develop muscle discomfort and/or weakness and who
also have progressive elevations of CK on serial measurements,
either a reduction of statin dose or a temporary
discontinuation may be prudent. A decision can then be
made whether or when to reinstitute statin therapy."
What possible reason could you have to attempt to intimidate the reasonable
discussion about a common concern?
What makes you think that your biased and slanted and entirely irrational
opinion of Dr. Cohen's fine book is of interest here? Who designated you as
the official mind reader of top-selling physicians who just might be
answering a large public outcry and need to know as 'bad mouthing'?
Seems you may have mistaken a look in the mirror for the back cover of Dr.
Cohen's EXCELLENT book.
"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:Igwqe.9359$_A5.5095@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1006051301500001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
I continue to learn more and more about statins as a result of this book:
"What You Must Know about Statin Drugs and their Natural Alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
I encourage you to buy it if you take statins.
One question came up about a week ago in this newsgroup. I will now
attempt to answer that question.
Someone posted a message indicating that they stopped taking statins as a
result of muscle pains but planned to start taking the same statins at
the
same dosage levels since her chol. levels were really high.
The question that was asked was:
What will happen to this person if she keeps taking the statins for
several years while having muscle pains during those same several years?
I have downloaded reports from the medlineplus web site related to
Rhabdomyolysis and Acute Tubular Necrosis
Two of the symptoms of Rhabdomyolysis are MUSCLE STIFFNESS or ACHING
(myalgia).
Two the symptoms of Acute Tubular Necrosis are JOINT PAIN AND FLANK PAIN.
Such a person could eventually develop one of these diseases. It's also
possible that this person might not ever develop any of these diseases
but
would just have to learn to live with muscle pains for as long as she
takes statins.
My advice to this person is to see your doctor and discuss options since
your muscle pains could mean that you may develop one of the diseases
mentioned above.
I am not a doctor or a medical expert.
I welcome your comments.
Jason
You make it sound like there is a reasonable chance of getting
Rhabdomyolysis.
To be objective you should point out that it is pretty rare.
Also, it is not true that muscle pain never goes away for any patient.
Also, why are you asking this? You come across as trying to bad mouth
statins as much as possible without actually lying. Which is what the
author of the book was doing on the back cover as I pointed out.
Bill
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
|
Junkie! Just can't help to help folks.
Compassion not bandied about here much but folks hurt real good tend as
humans do to alert others.
Our nature which I think helps us all perhaps in subtle ways.
Bill
--
I'm about here Long -75.0246 Lat 39.637876
FAIR USE NOTICE: This may contain copyrighted (© ) material the use of
which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright
owner. Such material is made available for educational purposes, to
advance understanding of human rights, democracy, scientific, moral,
ethical, and social justice issues, etc. It is believed that this
constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided
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William Wagner
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 809
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
In article <b2wagner-6B6D4B.18042711062005@altnews.snip.net>,
William Wagner <b2wagner@snip.net> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <1118526693.233449.257890@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"zee" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote:
There is a poster currently on group who listened to Bill last year and
owing to his convincing argument of the relative safety of statins,
disregarded your and my advice, and has now returned asking about
serious statin adverse effects, including myopathy and peripheral
neuropathy.
Sharon Hope wrote:
Bill,
Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger
of
muscle pain? Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to intimidate,
so
others won't post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about
adverse
effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom
Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open discussion,
just
because it addresses statin side effects? Is there some bonus for
keeping
the numbers low in the hits returned by the pharmco webcrawlers?
Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity of
rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason was
addressing
the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient already exhibiting
statin myopathy. Rhabdo, by the way IS a result of statin myopathy.
It is quite reasonable to assume that there is enough of a chance for a
paitient who is already exhibiting statin myopathy to go into
rhabomyolysis,
however rare it is in the general population. Did you also chastize the
AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of muscle pain?
After all, even Scott Grundy, the all-time statin cheerleader and
apologist,
and acceptor of funding from all statin pharmcos, himself wrote the
following in the
ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory
on the Use and Safety of Statins
:
"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common
causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation
in activity for persons who experience these symptoms
during combination therapy.
Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate
if the patient is on combination therapy) if a CK greater
than 10 times the ULN is encountered in a patient with
muscle soreness, tenderness, or pain.
If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain with either no CK elevation or a moderate elevation (3
to 10 times the ULN), follow the patient's symptoms and
CK levels weekly until there is no longer medical concern or
symptoms worsen to the situation described previously (at
which point therapy should be discontinued). For patients
who develop muscle discomfort and/or weakness and who
also have progressive elevations of CK on serial measurements,
either a reduction of statin dose or a temporary
discontinuation may be prudent. A decision can then be
made whether or when to reinstitute statin therapy."
What possible reason could you have to attempt to intimidate the
reasonable
discussion about a common concern?
What makes you think that your biased and slanted and entirely irrational
opinion of Dr. Cohen's fine book is of interest here? Who designated you
as
the official mind reader of top-selling physicians who just might be
answering a large public outcry and need to know as 'bad mouthing'?
Seems you may have mistaken a look in the mirror for the back cover of
Dr.
Cohen's EXCELLENT book.
"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:Igwqe.9359$_A5.5095@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1006051301500001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
I continue to learn more and more about statins as a result of this
book:
"What You Must Know about Statin Drugs and their Natural Alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
I encourage you to buy it if you take statins.
One question came up about a week ago in this newsgroup. I will now
attempt to answer that question.
Someone posted a message indicating that they stopped taking statins
as a
result of muscle pains but planned to start taking the same statins at
the
same dosage levels since her chol. levels were really high.
The question that was asked was:
What will happen to this person if she keeps taking the statins for
several years while having muscle pains during those same several
years?
I have downloaded reports from the medlineplus web site related to
Rhabdomyolysis and Acute Tubular Necrosis
Two of the symptoms of Rhabdomyolysis are MUSCLE STIFFNESS or ACHING
(myalgia).
Two the symptoms of Acute Tubular Necrosis are JOINT PAIN AND FLANK
PAIN.
Such a person could eventually develop one of these diseases. It's
also
possible that this person might not ever develop any of these diseases
but
would just have to learn to live with muscle pains for as long as she
takes statins.
My advice to this person is to see your doctor and discuss options
since
your muscle pains could mean that you may develop one of the diseases
mentioned above.
I am not a doctor or a medical expert.
I welcome your comments.
Jason
You make it sound like there is a reasonable chance of getting
Rhabdomyolysis.
To be objective you should point out that it is pretty rare.
Also, it is not true that muscle pain never goes away for any patient.
Also, why are you asking this? You come across as trying to bad mouth
statins as much as possible without actually lying. Which is what the
author of the book was doing on the back cover as I pointed out.
Bill
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
Junkie! Just can't help to help folks.
Compassion not bandied about here much but folks hurt real good tend as
humans do to alert others.
Our nature which I think helps us all perhaps in subtle ways.
Bill
|
I'm sorry I forgot to add for L. and Robert.
It is OK to eat the Yellow Snow.
Flip Wilson made me do it  )
Bill
--
I'm about here Long -75.0246 Lat 39.637876
FAIR USE NOTICE: This may contain copyrighted (© ) material the use of
which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright
owner. Such material is made available for educational purposes, to
advance understanding of human rights, democracy, scientific, moral,
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Bill
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 849
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:46 am Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1106050752500001@pm4-broad-33.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
| Quote: | In article <Igwqe.9359$_A5.5095@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>, "Bill"
xxx@yy.zz> wrote:
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1006051301500001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
I continue to learn more and more about statins as a result of this book:
"What You Must Know about Statin Drugs and their Natural Alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
I encourage you to buy it if you take statins.
One question came up about a week ago in this newsgroup. I will now
attempt to answer that question.
Someone posted a message indicating that they stopped taking statins as a
result of muscle pains but planned to start taking the same statins at
the
same dosage levels since her chol. levels were really high.
The question that was asked was:
What will happen to this person if she keeps taking the statins for
several years while having muscle pains during those same several years?
I have downloaded reports from the medlineplus web site related to
Rhabdomyolysis and Acute Tubular Necrosis
Two of the symptoms of Rhabdomyolysis are MUSCLE STIFFNESS or ACHING
(myalgia).
Two the symptoms of Acute Tubular Necrosis are JOINT PAIN AND FLANK PAIN.
Such a person could eventually develop one of these diseases. It's also
possible that this person might not ever develop any of these diseases
but
would just have to learn to live with muscle pains for as long as she
takes statins.
My advice to this person is to see your doctor and discuss options since
your muscle pains could mean that you may develop one of the diseases
mentioned above.
I am not a doctor or a medical expert.
I welcome your comments.
Jason
You make it sound like there is a reasonable chance of getting
Rhabdomyolysis.
To be objective you should point out that it is pretty rare.
Also, it is not true that muscle pain never goes away for any patient.
Also, why are you asking this? You come across as trying to bad mouth
statins
as much as possible without actually lying. Which is what the author of the
book was doing on the back cover as I pointed out.
Bill
Bill,
I realize that Rhad. is rare. Ebola is also rare. However, hundreds of
people do have Rhad. and many of them would not presently have the disease
if they had never taken statins.
|
But you pointed this out without also mentioning that it is rare. Without that
you are lying but you are not giving a fair picture either. In other words you
are distoring.
| Quote: | I don't believe that you read my post
very well.
|
I did.
| Quote: | I told the person that she would continue to have muscle pains
FOR AS LONG AS SHE TAKES STATINS.
|
That may be true in some or even most people but you have absolutely no basis
that this will continue to happen to this particular person.
| Quote: | If she keeps taking the present statin
that she is now taking at the same dosage level--she will keep having
muscle pains since she had those same muscle pains the last time. It's my
guess that the muscle pains would go away if she stopped taking statins
until she can see her doctor.
There are treatment options to prevent her from having those muscle pains.
Her doctor should already know those treatment options. There are also
lots of treatment options in the book that was mentioned in my post. I
believe that statins are wonderful medications. However, if anyone
develops muscle pains--they should see their doctors for treatment
options. In my case, I have decided to stop taking statins until I see my
doctor. I may start taking low dose statins in a couple of months. The
author of the book that I mentioned in my post has many positive and
negative things to say about statins. He believes that all doctors should
start their patients with a very low dose of statins. Many doctors start
with a high dose of statins which causes lots of people to develop side
effects.
|
You asked for an opinion on what you said. I gave it. What you said was
unbalenced against statins. You said nothing on the benefits of statins only
the risks. You pointed out a serious disorder that comes from statins but did
not point out it very rare. You claimed this person would continue to have
muscle pains so long as she continued to take statins. And that well may not
be true. In other words what you said was very biased.
Bill
| Quote: | Jason
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
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Louise
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 12
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:49 am Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
In article <1118526693.233449.257890@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
outrider@despammed.com says...
| Quote: | There is a poster currently on group who listened to Bill last year and
owing to his convincing argument of the relative safety of statins,
disregarded your and my advice, and has now returned asking about
serious statin adverse effects, including myopathy and peripheral
neuropathy.
Sharon Hope wrote:
Bill,
Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of
muscle pain? Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to intimidate, so
others won't post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about adverse
effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom
Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open discussion, just
because it addresses statin side effects? Is there some bonus for keeping
the numbers low in the hits returned by the pharmco webcrawlers?
Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity of
rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason was addressing
the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient already exhibiting
statin myopathy. Rhabdo, by the way IS a result of statin myopathy.
It is quite reasonable to assume that there is enough of a chance for a
paitient who is already exhibiting statin myopathy to go into rhabomyolysis,
however rare it is in the general population. Did you also chastize the
AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of muscle pain?
After all, even Scott Grundy, the all-time statin cheerleader and apologist,
and acceptor of funding from all statin pharmcos, himself wrote the
following in the
ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory
on the Use and Safety of Statins
:
"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common
causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation
in activity for persons who experience these symptoms
during combination therapy.
Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate
I am the poster Zee speaks about. It is true that I did decide to go |
ahead with using statins partially due to some research (postings on
this newgroup being part of it) that seemed to indicate side effects are
quite rare. In restrospect, I didn't listen carefully enough to what I
heard and I didn't research deeply enough. I wanted it to be ok - I
guess I wanted to feel I was "safe" because I was taking statins.
So, here I am, off Crestor for 1 1/2 weeks and my hands aren't tingling
nearly as much and I've gone all day today with mild pain but no muscle
relaxants. Since I have fibromyalgia, it is hard to pin all the blame
on statins.
However, postings on this group, and more serious research on pubmed
have pretty well convinced me that I am increasing my COQ10, increasing
my Omega 3s and getting pantethine. And I am not going back on any
statin.
What really blew my mind was that I saw my cardiologist about a month
ago and told him I was having trouble with muscles and tendons in my
feet and feet, along with some tingling in the feet. This discussion
took place around whether or not I could actually do a stress test
because of this pain.
NEVER did the cardiologist question me about when the pain started,
whether I also had back pain (which I have quite a bit of), or anything
else. In other words, even with all this information, he didn't connect
it to the Crestor.
In fact, I even asked whether he though Crestor was safe, saying I'd
been reading things to the contrary. He assured me it's a very safe
drug at low doses - I'm taking 5mg.
So, so much for creative thinking in a highly respected cardiologist
associated with a major teaching hosptial in Manhattan!
My plan is to wait a few more weeks to clean the crestor out of my
system. Then I will add more Omega 3s and I will start on pantethine.
In a few more months I'll have another lipid panel done. I hope it's
real good so perhaps I can tell him about alternatives to crestor :-)
Louise |
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Bill
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 849
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:01 am Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
news:D4KdnVMQuZts1zbfRVn-ug@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Bill,
Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of
muscle pain?
|
No. I've have not seen all they wrote, but I'm guessing it was fair. I would
warn people about the risks too. Only in a fair way. Why do you think that is
relevant?
| Quote: | Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to intimidate, so others won't
post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about adverse
|
No. In fact I often agree with them.
| Quote: | effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom
Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open discussion, just
because it addresses statin side effects? Is there some bonus for keeping
the numbers low in the hits returned by the pharmco webcrawlers?
|
Please provide proof of your claim.
For the record statins can have adverse effects and I have said that many
times before.
| Quote: | Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity of
rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason was addressing
the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient already exhibiting
statin myopathy.
|
Myopathy is common. Rhabdomyolysis is rare. So do you think it is common in
people with myopathy? Provide a source for that. Also, has there ever been a
case of Rhabdomyolysis in a patient with a non-elevated CK level?
| Quote: | Rhabdo, by the way IS a result of statin myopathy.
It is quite reasonable to assume that there is enough of a chance for a
paitient who is already exhibiting statin myopathy to go into rhabomyolysis,
however rare it is in the general population.
|
What do mean by "enough"? and what evidence do you have?
| Quote: | Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of
muscle pain?
|
You already asked that and I answerd it. I assume they were unbiased in their
warnings. I have also warned about it.
| Quote: | After all, even Scott Grundy, the all-time statin cheerleader and apologist,
and acceptor of funding from all statin pharmcos, himself wrote the
following in the
ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory
on the Use and Safety of Statins
:
"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common
causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation
in activity for persons who experience these symptoms
during combination therapy.
Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate
if the patient is on combination therapy) if a CK greater
than 10 times the ULN is encountered in a patient with
muscle soreness, tenderness, or pain.
If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain with either no CK elevation or a moderate elevation (3
to 10 times the ULN), follow the patient's symptoms and
CK levels weekly until there is no longer medical concern or
symptoms worsen to the situation described previously (at
which point therapy should be discontinued). For patients
who develop muscle discomfort and/or weakness and who
also have progressive elevations of CK on serial measurements,
either a reduction of statin dose or a temporary
discontinuation may be prudent. A decision can then be
made whether or when to reinstitute statin therapy."
|
I agree with all of that.
| Quote: | What possible reason could you have to attempt to intimidate the reasonable
discussion about a common concern?
|
I don't have any.
| Quote: | What makes you think that your biased and slanted and entirely irrational
opinion of Dr. Cohen's fine book is of interest here?
|
I have said very little about the book. So it should be very easy to show
where I have provided biased and slanted and etirely irrattional opinions.
Please demonstrate this. Or be shown once again to be a liar.
| Quote: | Who designated you as the official mind reader of top-selling physicians who
just might be answering a large public outcry and need to know as 'bad
mouthing'?
No one. Are you a volunteer? |
| Quote: | Seems you may have mistaken a look in the mirror for the back cover of Dr.
Cohen's EXCELLENT book.
|
You continue to just engauge in downgrading others but doing absolutely
nothing to support your case.
Bill
| Quote: |
"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:Igwqe.9359$_A5.5095@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1006051301500001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
I continue to learn more and more about statins as a result of this book:
"What You Must Know about Statin Drugs and their Natural Alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
I encourage you to buy it if you take statins.
One question came up about a week ago in this newsgroup. I will now
attempt to answer that question.
Someone posted a message indicating that they stopped taking statins as a
result of muscle pains but planned to start taking the same statins at the
same dosage levels since her chol. levels were really high.
The question that was asked was:
What will happen to this person if she keeps taking the statins for
several years while having muscle pains during those same several years?
I have downloaded reports from the medlineplus web site related to
Rhabdomyolysis and Acute Tubular Necrosis
Two of the symptoms of Rhabdomyolysis are MUSCLE STIFFNESS or ACHING
(myalgia).
Two the symptoms of Acute Tubular Necrosis are JOINT PAIN AND FLANK PAIN.
Such a person could eventually develop one of these diseases. It's also
possible that this person might not ever develop any of these diseases but
would just have to learn to live with muscle pains for as long as she
takes statins.
My advice to this person is to see your doctor and discuss options since
your muscle pains could mean that you may develop one of the diseases
mentioned above.
I am not a doctor or a medical expert.
I welcome your comments.
Jason
You make it sound like there is a reasonable chance of getting
Rhabdomyolysis.
To be objective you should point out that it is pretty rare.
Also, it is not true that muscle pain never goes away for any patient.
Also, why are you asking this? You come across as trying to bad mouth
statins as much as possible without actually lying. Which is what the
author of the book was doing on the back cover as I pointed out.
Bill
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
|
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|
Bill
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 849
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:39 am Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
"Louise" <none@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d158b34355994b7989898@news-server.nyc.rr.com...
| Quote: | In article <1118526693.233449.257890@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
outrider@despammed.com says...
There is a poster currently on group who listened to Bill last year and
owing to his convincing argument of the relative safety of statins,
disregarded your and my advice, and has now returned asking about
serious statin adverse effects, including myopathy and peripheral
neuropathy.
Sharon Hope wrote:
Bill,
Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger
of
muscle pain? Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to intimidate,
so
others won't post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about
adverse
effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom
Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open discussion,
just
because it addresses statin side effects? Is there some bonus for
keeping
the numbers low in the hits returned by the pharmco webcrawlers?
Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity of
rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason was
addressing
the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient already exhibiting
statin myopathy. Rhabdo, by the way IS a result of statin myopathy.
It is quite reasonable to assume that there is enough of a chance for a
paitient who is already exhibiting statin myopathy to go into
rhabomyolysis,
however rare it is in the general population. Did you also chastize the
AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of muscle pain?
After all, even Scott Grundy, the all-time statin cheerleader and
apologist,
and acceptor of funding from all statin pharmcos, himself wrote the
following in the
ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory
on the Use and Safety of Statins
:
"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common
causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation
in activity for persons who experience these symptoms
during combination therapy.
Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate
I am the poster Zee speaks about. It is true that I did decide to go
ahead with using statins partially due to some research (postings on
this newgroup being part of it) that seemed to indicate side effects are
quite rare. In restrospect, I didn't listen carefully enough to what I
heard and I didn't research deeply enough. I wanted it to be ok - I
guess I wanted to feel I was "safe" because I was taking statins.
So, here I am, off Crestor for 1 1/2 weeks and my hands aren't tingling
nearly as much and I've gone all day today with mild pain but no muscle
relaxants. Since I have fibromyalgia, it is hard to pin all the blame
on statins.
However, postings on this group, and more serious research on pubmed
have pretty well convinced me that I am increasing my COQ10, increasing
my Omega 3s and getting pantethine. And I am not going back on any
statin.
What really blew my mind was that I saw my cardiologist about a month
ago and told him I was having trouble with muscles and tendons in my
feet and feet, along with some tingling in the feet. This discussion
took place around whether or not I could actually do a stress test
because of this pain.
NEVER did the cardiologist question me about when the pain started,
whether I also had back pain (which I have quite a bit of), or anything
else. In other words, even with all this information, he didn't connect
it to the Crestor.
In fact, I even asked whether he though Crestor was safe, saying I'd
been reading things to the contrary. He assured me it's a very safe
drug at low doses - I'm taking 5mg.
So, so much for creative thinking in a highly respected cardiologist
associated with a major teaching hosptial in Manhattan!
My plan is to wait a few more weeks to clean the crestor out of my
system. Then I will add more Omega 3s and I will start on pantethine.
In a few more months I'll have another lipid panel done. I hope it's
real good so perhaps I can tell him about alternatives to crestor :-)
Louise
|
Do you recall anything I said to you that you think was or might not have been
accurate? Or much much better a pointer to the post. I really try to be
accurate. And point out the Crestor has shown more risk than other drugs. I
also often recommend CoQ10 which I hope you are taking.
Bill |
|
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|
|
Robert
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1700
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:00 am Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
"Louise" <none@nospam.com> wrote in message myopathy.
| Quote: | "If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common
causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation
|
I agree you should play the percentages and get your calculators or
say,"think of horses not zebras" or say," rule out common causes".
A coworker came to me and said his CK was somewhat elevated and I asked if
he had exercised excessively recently and he said no. I asked if he was
hypothyroid and he said how did you know that. I said "because it is
common".
I did not think of asking about statins because he did not mention muscle
pain and I just never considerated statins (uncommon).
| Quote: |
in activity for persons who experience these symptoms
during combination therapy.
Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate
I am the poster Zee speaks about. It is true that I did decide to go
ahead with using statins partially due to some research (postings on
this newgroup being part of it) that seemed to indicate side effects are
quite rare. In restrospect, I didn't listen carefully enough to what I
heard and I didn't research deeply enough. I wanted it to be ok - I
guess I wanted to feel I was "safe" because I was taking statins.
|
I wasn't there so I can't comment on that. I know hindsight is 20/20. If you
had stopped all meds and had a heart attack it would have been worse or do
you think otherwise?
| Quote: |
So, here I am, off Crestor for 1 1/2 weeks and my hands aren't tingling
nearly as much and I've gone all day today with mild pain but no muscle
relaxants. Since I have fibromyalgia, it is hard to pin all the blame
on statins.
Fibromyalgia is one big mess.
However, postings on this group, and more serious research on pubmed
have pretty well convinced me that I am increasing my COQ10, increasing
my Omega 3s and getting pantethine. And I am not going back on any
statin.
What really blew my mind was that I saw my cardiologist about a month
ago and told him I was having trouble with muscles and tendons in my
feet and feet, along with some tingling in the feet. This discussion
took place around whether or not I could actually do a stress test
because of this pain.
NEVER did the cardiologist question me about when the pain started,
whether I also had back pain (which I have quite a bit of), or anything
else. In other words, even with all this information, he didn't connect
it to the Crestor.
Nor would I as pain is part of the fibromyalgia as is a host of endocrine |
dysfunction and a wide range of things that are just messed up.
| Quote: |
In fact, I even asked whether he though Crestor was safe, saying I'd
been reading things to the contrary. He assured me it's a very safe
drug at low doses - I'm taking 5mg.
|
Safe as in very few people are damaged and not safe for the very few who are
damaged. Complications are usually dose related.
| Quote: |
So, so much for creative thinking in a highly respected cardiologist
associated with a major teaching hosptial in Manhattan!
|
I see no proof that he was wrong. Were there or has there been elevated CK
levels?
| Quote: |
My plan is to wait a few more weeks to clean the crestor out of my
system. Then I will add more Omega 3s and I will start on pantethine.
In a few more months I'll have another lipid panel done. I hope it's
real good so perhaps I can tell him about alternatives to crestor :-)
Louise
|
You don' t have to take statins if you don't want to. I thought that was
obvious from the start. |
|
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|
|
Sharon Hope
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 752
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
Louise,
If you read Dr. Cohen's new book "What you must know about statin drugs &
their natural alternatives" you can check the table on page 42, Table 3-1
LDL-C reductions with Statin Drugs.
You will see that 5 mg of Crestor is not necessarily a low dose. 5mg
Crestor equates to an average 45% reduction in LDL-C (of course, in women
the drugs are much more potent than average, as he points out on page 73ff
in the chapter on Women and Seniors).
My husband was on 10mg of Lipitor for 4 years, and developed devastating and
disabling muscle, nerve, cognitive and memory damage. Only in his mid-50's,
he has been off the Lipitor for 3 1/2 years, and only began to show some
improvement in the last several months. He remains significantly disabled.
Per Dr. Cohen's comparison table:
5 mg Crestor = avg 45% reduction LDL
10 mg Lipitor = avg 39% reduction LDL
1 mg Crestor = avg 34% reduction LDL
So, NO, do not permit the doctor to imply you were on a low dosage of
statin. Further, not only were you on a higher effective dosage than my
statin-disabled husband, any dosage for a woman would be more likely to
cause adverse effects than the same dosage in a man.
"Louise" <none@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d158b34355994b7989898@news-server.nyc.rr.com...
| Quote: | In article <1118526693.233449.257890@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
outrider@despammed.com says...
There is a poster currently on group who listened to Bill last year and
owing to his convincing argument of the relative safety of statins,
disregarded your and my advice, and has now returned asking about
serious statin adverse effects, including myopathy and peripheral
neuropathy.
Sharon Hope wrote:
Bill,
Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the
danger of
muscle pain? Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to
intimidate, so
others won't post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about
adverse
effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom
Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open discussion,
just
because it addresses statin side effects? Is there some bonus for
keeping
the numbers low in the hits returned by the pharmco webcrawlers?
Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity of
rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason was
addressing
the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient already exhibiting
statin myopathy. Rhabdo, by the way IS a result of statin myopathy.
It is quite reasonable to assume that there is enough of a chance for a
paitient who is already exhibiting statin myopathy to go into
rhabomyolysis,
however rare it is in the general population. Did you also chastize
the
AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger of muscle pain?
After all, even Scott Grundy, the all-time statin cheerleader and
apologist,
and acceptor of funding from all statin pharmcos, himself wrote the
following in the
ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory
on the Use and Safety of Statins
:
"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common
causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation
in activity for persons who experience these symptoms
during combination therapy.
Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate
I am the poster Zee speaks about. It is true that I did decide to go
ahead with using statins partially due to some research (postings on
this newgroup being part of it) that seemed to indicate side effects are
quite rare. In restrospect, I didn't listen carefully enough to what I
heard and I didn't research deeply enough. I wanted it to be ok - I
guess I wanted to feel I was "safe" because I was taking statins.
So, here I am, off Crestor for 1 1/2 weeks and my hands aren't tingling
nearly as much and I've gone all day today with mild pain but no muscle
relaxants. Since I have fibromyalgia, it is hard to pin all the blame
on statins.
However, postings on this group, and more serious research on pubmed
have pretty well convinced me that I am increasing my COQ10, increasing
my Omega 3s and getting pantethine. And I am not going back on any
statin.
What really blew my mind was that I saw my cardiologist about a month
ago and told him I was having trouble with muscles and tendons in my
feet and feet, along with some tingling in the feet. This discussion
took place around whether or not I could actually do a stress test
because of this pain.
NEVER did the cardiologist question me about when the pain started,
whether I also had back pain (which I have quite a bit of), or anything
else. In other words, even with all this information, he didn't connect
it to the Crestor.
In fact, I even asked whether he though Crestor was safe, saying I'd
been reading things to the contrary. He assured me it's a very safe
drug at low doses - I'm taking 5mg.
So, so much for creative thinking in a highly respected cardiologist
associated with a major teaching hosptial in Manhattan!
My plan is to wait a few more weeks to clean the crestor out of my
system. Then I will add more Omega 3s and I will start on pantethine.
In a few more months I'll have another lipid panel done. I hope it's
real good so perhaps I can tell him about alternatives to crestor :-)
Louise |
|
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| Back to top |
|
|
Sharon Hope
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 752
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
"Robert" <Robertitsme@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VeWdnaFQC5pbZDbfRVn-3A@got.net...
| Quote: |
"Louise" <none@nospam.com> wrote in message myopathy.
"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common
causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation
I agree you should play the percentages and get your calculators or
say,"think of horses not zebras" or say," rule out common causes".
A coworker came to me and said his CK was somewhat elevated and I asked if
he had exercised excessively recently and he said no. I asked if he was
hypothyroid and he said how did you know that. I said "because it is
common".
I did not think of asking about statins because he did not mention muscle
pain and I just never considerated statins (uncommon).
in activity for persons who experience these symptoms
during combination therapy.
Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate
I am the poster Zee speaks about. It is true that I did decide to go
ahead with using statins partially due to some research (postings on
this newgroup being part of it) that seemed to indicate side effects are
quite rare. In restrospect, I didn't listen carefully enough to what I
heard and I didn't research deeply enough. I wanted it to be ok - I
guess I wanted to feel I was "safe" because I was taking statins.
I wasn't there so I can't comment on that. I know hindsight is 20/20. If
you
had stopped all meds and had a heart attack it would have been worse or do
you think otherwise?
|
Why is it always a choice between taking HARMFUL medication at far too high
a dosage while the doctor refuses to monitor for KNOWN DISABLING ADVERSE
EFFECTS, and a heart attack? Is this something the pharmcos teach you in
defense-of-statin-damage-101?
That question is the most absurd non-sequitor. It is beneath you to
oversimplify like that. First, do no harm, then work to prevent harm. Both
of these paths are missing from the straw-dog alternatives in your absurd
question.
| Quote: |
So, here I am, off Crestor for 1 1/2 weeks and my hands aren't tingling
nearly as much and I've gone all day today with mild pain but no muscle
relaxants. Since I have fibromyalgia, it is hard to pin all the blame
on statins.
Fibromyalgia is one big mess.
However, postings on this group, and more serious research on pubmed
have pretty well convinced me that I am increasing my COQ10, increasing
my Omega 3s and getting pantethine. And I am not going back on any
statin.
What really blew my mind was that I saw my cardiologist about a month
ago and told him I was having trouble with muscles and tendons in my
feet and feet, along with some tingling in the feet. This discussion
took place around whether or not I could actually do a stress test
because of this pain.
NEVER did the cardiologist question me about when the pain started,
whether I also had back pain (which I have quite a bit of), or anything
else. In other words, even with all this information, he didn't connect
it to the Crestor.
Nor would I as pain is part of the fibromyalgia as is a host of endocrine
dysfunction and a wide range of things that are just messed up.
|
So, you are saying that despite a 3-year established JOINT warning by the
American Heart Association, the American College of Cardiology, and the
National Institutes of Health's Heart, Lung and Blood Institute admonishing
all doctors who prescribe statins to be on the watch for muscle pain as a
possible indication of life-threatening complications, you would not bother
to consider that the statin is the cause of exactly this symptom, the
subject of the joint advisory?
And, you would also ignore the foundation findings by Dr. Phillips on statin
myopathy and myositis without elevated CK?
No wonder there are so few statin adverse effects reports! Doctors REFUSE
TO EVEN CONSIDER WHAT IS IN FRONT OF THEM, BROUGHT TO THEIR ATTENTION BY THE
CONCERNED PATIENT IN PAIN, AND WARNED BY THE AHA, ACC, AND NHLBI!
No wonder people like my husband are disabled for years by statins when
their doctors follow the same course you and Louise's doctor did
| Quote: |
In fact, I even asked whether he though Crestor was safe, saying I'd
been reading things to the contrary. He assured me it's a very safe
drug at low doses - I'm taking 5mg.
Safe as in very few people are damaged and not safe for the very few who
are
damaged. Complications are usually dose related.
So, so much for creative thinking in a highly respected cardiologist
associated with a major teaching hosptial in Manhattan!
I see no proof that he was wrong. Were there or has there been elevated CK
levels?
|
PROOF is for the doctor to discover, when, if competent, he not only
monitors the patient for KNOWN adverse effects from a drug he prescribes,
but also listens to the patient's concerns.
Further, as Dr. Phillip's study proved, there can be massive myopathy and
muscle pain induced by statins as adverse effects WITHOUT ELEVATED CK. It
is obvious, however, and indisputable upon muscle biopsy.
| Quote: |
My plan is to wait a few more weeks to clean the crestor out of my
system. Then I will add more Omega 3s and I will start on pantethine.
In a few more months I'll have another lipid panel done. I hope it's
real good so perhaps I can tell him about alternatives to crestor :-)
Louise
You don' t have to take statins if you don't want to. I thought that was
obvious from the start.
|
No, that is not the way the doctors portray it. There is no choice alluded
to.
In fact, your absurd question up above in this post is how they put it: Take
statins or have a heart attack.
That does not sound like "you don't have to take statins if you don't have
to" - no, not obvious at all.
No, my husband, for instance, was told repeatedly that he must take statins
or die from a heart attack. He nearly died of the statin adverse effects.
His ongoing quality of life is very severely damaged with pain, muscle
damage, fatigue, neurological damage, cognitive damage, memory loss, amnesia
episodes, aphasia, and other problems, all DIRECTLY resulting from Lipitor
10 mg. for 4 years. All Statin ADVERSE EFFECTS. All ongoing in damage and
pain 3 YEARS after halting the Lipitor.
> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharon Hope
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 752
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Additional Info. about statins
|
|
|
"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:YkPqe.8274$jS1.8168@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
| Quote: |
"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
news:D4KdnVMQuZts1zbfRVn-ug@comcast.com...
Bill,
Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger
of muscle pain?
No. I've have not seen all they wrote, but I'm guessing it was fair. I
would warn people about the risks too. Only in a fair way. Why do you
think that is relevant?
|
Statin muscle damage, myopathy, myositis, can lead to rhabdomyolysis.
Obviously the AHA, ACC, and NIH's NHLBI thought it was relevant.
| Quote: |
Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to intimidate, so others
won't post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about adverse
No. In fact I often agree with them.
effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom
Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open discussion,
just because it addresses statin side effects? Is there some bonus for
keeping the numbers low in the hits returned by the pharmco webcrawlers?
Please provide proof of your claim.
For the record statins can have adverse effects and I have said that many
times before.
Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity of
rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason was
addressing the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient already
exhibiting statin myopathy.
Myopathy is common. Rhabdomyolysis is rare. So do you think it is common
in people with myopathy? Provide a source for that. Also, has there ever
been a case of Rhabdomyolysis in a patient with a non-elevated CK level?
Rhabd |
| | |
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