Additional Info. about statins

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Additional Info. about statins

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Rita
medicine forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 180

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:39 pm Post subject: Note

Re: Additional Info. about statins

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:52:49 -0700, "Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote:

Quote:

My husband was on 10mg of Lipitor for 4 years, and developed devastating and
disabling muscle, nerve, cognitive and memory damage. Only in his mid-50's,
he has been off the Lipitor for 3 1/2 years, and only began to show some
improvement in the last several months. He remains significantly disabled.

Sharon, I have read of the muscle pain and weakness, but nothing
really about the nature of it. What kinds of symptoms did your
husband experience. And is there anyplace I can get a description
of typical symptoms others have experienced?

outrider
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1155

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject: Note

Re: Additional Info. about statins

Rita wrote:

Quote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:52:49 -0700, "Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote:

My husband was on 10mg of Lipitor for 4 years, and developed devastating and
disabling muscle, nerve, cognitive and memory damage. Only in his mid-50's,
he has been off the Lipitor for 3 1/2 years, and only began to show some
improvement in the last several months. He remains significantly disabled.

Sharon, I have read of the muscle pain and weakness, but nothing
really about the nature of it. What kinds of symptoms did your
husband experience. And is there anyplace I can get a description
of typical symptoms others have experienced?

I sent you everything you need Rita. The 86 page FAQ, Dr. Golomb's
website with information about side effects others have experienced and
her contact information, Dr. Phillips' website with explanation of
mechanism of myopathy, links to stories of others injured by statins,
and studies specific to your first couple requests.

I also sent you an explanaton of my own injury from Lipitor and Baycol,
how it affected me and what symptoms I still experience, almost four
years after stopping.

I hope this helps you.

Zee

Jason
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1120

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:30 pm Post subject: Note

Re: Additional Info. about statins

In article <up3pa1dgbt60tdv8i13sunbdh1k5gibokr@4ax.com>, Rita
<nitany_98@yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

Rita,
You really need to read this book. I learned a lot more from the book than
I learned from my doctor. I found out from the book that many doctors know
very little about statins. After you read this book, you will know more
than most doctors about statins.
Here's the name of the book and author:
"What You Must Know about statin drugs and their natural alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Sharon Hope
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 752

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:26 pm Post subject: Note

Re: Additional Info. about statins

Rita,

It is in the FAQ that Zee sent to you. That has abstracts and links to
actual studies published in medical journals, not opinion or anecdotes.

"Rita" <nitany_98@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:up3pa1dgbt60tdv8i13sunbdh1k5gibokr@4ax.com...

Quote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:52:49 -0700, "Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote:

My husband was on 10mg of Lipitor for 4 years, and developed devastating
and
disabling muscle, nerve, cognitive and memory damage. Only in his
mid-50's,
he has been off the Lipitor for 3 1/2 years, and only began to show some
improvement in the last several months. He remains significantly
disabled.

Sharon, I have read of the muscle pain and weakness, but nothing
really about the nature of it. What kinds of symptoms did your
husband experience. And is there anyplace I can get a description
of typical symptoms others have experienced?

Just Ed
medicine forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 120

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:16 am Post subject: Note

Re: Additional Info. about statins

Louise wrote:

Quote:

I am the poster Zee speaks about. It is true that I did decide to go
ahead with using statins partially due to some research (postings on
this newgroup being part of it) that seemed to indicate side effects are
quite rare. In restrospect, I didn't listen carefully enough to what I
heard and I didn't research deeply enough. I wanted it to be ok - I
guess I wanted to feel I was "safe" because I was taking statins.

So, here I am, off Crestor for 1 1/2 weeks and my hands aren't tingling
nearly as much and I've gone all day today with mild pain but no muscle
relaxants. Since I have fibromyalgia, it is hard to pin all the blame
on statins.

However, postings on this group, and more serious research on pubmed
have pretty well convinced me that I am increasing my COQ10, increasing
my Omega 3s and getting pantethine. And I am not going back on any
statin.

What really blew my mind was that I saw my cardiologist about a month
ago and told him I was having trouble with muscles and tendons in my
feet and feet, along with some tingling in the feet. This discussion
took place around whether or not I could actually do a stress test
because of this pain.

NEVER did the cardiologist question me about when the pain started,
whether I also had back pain (which I have quite a bit of), or anything
else. In other words, even with all this information, he didn't connect
it to the Crestor.

In fact, I even asked whether he though Crestor was safe, saying I'd
been reading things to the contrary. He assured me it's a very safe
drug at low doses - I'm taking 5mg.

So, so much for creative thinking in a highly respected cardiologist
associated with a major teaching hosptial in Manhattan!

My plan is to wait a few more weeks to clean the crestor out of my
system. Then I will add more Omega 3s and I will start on pantethine.
In a few more months I'll have another lipid panel done. I hope it's
real good so perhaps I can tell him about alternatives to crestor Smile

Louise,
Pantethine seems to have a clean safety record so far as we haven't
heard of AE's like we have from the big pharma statins. However it
does effect the same enzyme and could possibly produce the same AEs.

As suspect that you may be sensitive to statin damage you ought to be
alert to the same symptoms when you start pantethine. You are taking
CoQ10 which seems to be the most accepted preventative/avoidance
measure.

I'm interested in pantethine and have begun reading about it. I have
seen some vague references to steroid problems (the body makes steroids
from cho) but nothing close to a suggestion of supplementation. I do
wonder, though, if DHEA supplementation might offer some "protection"
from adverse effects. The body could make needed steroids from it
even if statins dropped cho levels too low. This is still just my
speculation though.

The last abstract I'll post is where low DHEA levels (and others) were
noted in women with fibromyalgia. As the abstract says, no
cause/effect
relationship has been established and you may not have it but low DHEA
is extremely common as we age. see the LEF page below if interested.

Ed

LEF protocol on DHEA:
http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-041.shtml

Web definitions of "statin":
http://www.stjude.org/glossary?searchTerm=S
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.1
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statin

PMID: 3196742
Modulation of HMG-CoA reductase activity by pantetheine/pantethine

PMID: 10534604
Pain. 1999 Nov;83(2):313-9.

Hyposecretion of adrenal androgens and the relation of serum adrenal
steroids, serotonin and insulin-like growth factor-1 to clinical
features in women with fibromyalgia.

Dessein PH, Shipton EA, Joffe BI, Hadebe DP, Stanwix AE, Van der Merwe
BA.

Rheumatology Unit, Milpark Hospital, Johannesburg, South Africa.

Neuroendocrine deficiencies have been implicated in fibromyalgia (FM).
In the present study, adrenal androgen metabolites and their
relationship with health status in FM were investigated. For
comparison, serum levels of other implicated neuroendocrine mediators
were correlated with health status. Fifty-seven consecutive women with
FM completed the Fibromyalgia Impact Questionnaire (FIQ). Fasting blood
samples were taken for measurement of dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate
(DHEAS), free testosterone (T), cortisol, serotonin and insulin-like
growth factor-1. Normal value for DHEAS and T were obtained from 114
controls. DHEAS levels were decreased significantly in pre- and
postmenopausal patients (P<0.0001 and P<0.0005, respectively). T levels
were decreased significantly in premenopausal and insignificantly in
postmenopausal patients (P<0.0001 and P=0.06, respectively). The
following correlations between neurohormonal levels and FIQ scores were
found: DHEAS (after adjustment for age) vs. pain (P<0.001) and T (after
adjustment for age) versus physical functioning (P=0.002). None of the
other neurohormonal levels correlated significantly with any of the FIQ
scores. IGF-1 levels were lower in the obese patients as compared to
those who were non-obese (P=0.03). The BMI correlated positively with
pain (P<0. 001) and inversely with DHEAS levels (P=0.006). After
further adjustment for BMI, the correlation between age adjusted DHEAS
and pain was no longer significant. Hyposecretion of adrenal androgens
was documented in FM. This was more pronounced in obese patients. Low
serum androgen levels correlated with poor health status in FM.
Longitudinal studies are needed to elucidate whether these are cause
and/or effect relationships.

Bill
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 849

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:57 am Post subject: Note

Re: Additional Info. about statins

"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
news:mbSdnV8qObyPFzHfRVn-2w@comcast.com...

Quote:

"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:YkPqe.8274$jS1.8168@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
news:D4KdnVMQuZts1zbfRVn-ug@comcast.com...
Bill,

Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger
of muscle pain?

No. I've have not seen all they wrote, but I'm guessing it was fair. I
would warn people about the risks too. Only in a fair way. Why do you
think that is relevant?

Statin muscle damage, myopathy, myositis, can lead to rhabdomyolysis.
Obviously the AHA, ACC, and NIH's NHLBI thought it was relevant.

As do I and as I mentioned. Why are you pointing out things I agree with? Do
you have anything remotely resembling a point here?

Quote:

Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to intimidate, so others
won't post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about adverse

No. In fact I often agree with them.

effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom

Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open discussion, just
because it addresses statin side effects? Is there some bonus for keeping
the numbers low in the hits returned by the pharmco webcrawlers?

Please provide proof of your claim.

For the record statins can have adverse effects and I have said that many
times before.

You have avoided the above.

Quote:

Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity of
rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason was
addressing the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient already
exhibiting statin myopathy.

Myopathy is common. Rhabdomyolysis is rare. So do you think it is common in
people with myopathy? Provide a source for that. Also, has there ever been
a case of Rhabdomyolysis in a patient with a non-elevated CK level?

You have avoided the above.

Quote:

Rhabdo, by the way IS a result of statin myopathy.

It is quite reasonable to assume that there is enough of a chance for a
paitient who is already exhibiting statin myopathy to go into
rhabomyolysis, however rare it is in the general population.

What do mean by "enough"? and what evidence do you have?

You have avoided the above.

Quote:

Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger
of muscle pain?

You already asked that and I answerd it. I assume they were unbiased in
their warnings. I have also warned about it.

After all, even Scott Grundy, the all-time statin cheerleader and
apologist, and acceptor of funding from all statin pharmcos, himself wrote
the following in the
ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory

on the Use and Safety of Statins

:

"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common

causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation

in activity for persons who experience these symptoms

during combination therapy.

Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate

if the patient is on combination therapy) if a CK greater

than 10 times the ULN is encountered in a patient with

muscle soreness, tenderness, or pain.

If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or

pain with either no CK elevation or a moderate elevation (3

to 10 times the ULN), follow the patient's symptoms and

CK levels weekly until there is no longer medical concern or

symptoms worsen to the situation described previously (at

which point therapy should be discontinued). For patients

who develop muscle discomfort and/or weakness and who

also have progressive elevations of CK on serial measurements,

either a reduction of statin dose or a temporary

discontinuation may be prudent. A decision can then be

made whether or when to reinstitute statin therapy."

I agree with all of that.

You have neglected to say why you even brought this up.

Quote:

What possible reason could you have to attempt to intimidate the
reasonable discussion about a common concern?

I don't have any.

What makes you think that your biased and slanted and entirely irrational
opinion of Dr. Cohen's fine book is of interest here?

I have said very little about the book. So it should be very easy to show
where I have provided biased and slanted and etirely irrattional opinions.

Please demonstrate this. Or be shown once again to be a liar.

check this thread, that came from you to Jason regarding Dr. Cohen's book.

I'm familar. Again you continue avoid the question. The reason is you have no
answer. If you did, you would provide an answer. Instead you say go look at
something when I've already said that something proves you to be a liar.

Quote:

Who designated you as the official mind reader of top-selling physicians
who just might be answering a large public outcry and need to know as 'bad
mouthing'?

No one. Are you a volunteer?

check this thread, that came from you to Jason regarding Dr. Cohen's book.

That does not even make any sense at all. I see no reference to appointees at
all.

Quote:

Seems you may have mistaken a look in the mirror for the back cover of Dr.
Cohen's EXCELLENT book.

You continue to just engauge in downgrading others but doing absolutely
nothing to support your case.

There is an 80-page FAQ on Statin Adverse Effects on the web for all to see,
that I created and maintain to support my case. What is your response to
the study findings in that FAQ?

http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our_statins/StatinFAQ_031305wTOCv4.pdf

That they have nothing to do with what is being discussed here. I have agreed
with most of the evidence you have posted here. What I've disagreed with is
your attacks on me.

But I had previously looked at the PDF file and it seems biased. I don't see
much in the way of positive studies on statins. Second, it lists as side
effects of Lipitor anything that happened to a large group of people during
the trial. If you take a group of 2000 people and follow them for several
months you will see a large variety of medical conditions arise. The source
you were quoting from said "regardless of cauasality" and you left that out.
That was biased.

Bill

Quote:

Bill

"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:Igwqe.9359$_A5.5095@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...

"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1006051301500001@pm4-broad-55.snlo.dialup.fix.net...

I continue to learn more and more about statins as a result of this
book:

"What You Must Know about Statin Drugs and their Natural Alternatives"
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.

I encourage you to buy it if you take statins.

One question came up about a week ago in this newsgroup. I will now
attempt to answer that question.

Someone posted a message indicating that they stopped taking statins as
a
result of muscle pains but planned to start taking the same statins at
the
same dosage levels since her chol. levels were really high.

The question that was asked was:
What will happen to this person if she keeps taking the statins for
several years while having muscle pains during those same several years?

I have downloaded reports from the medlineplus web site related to
Rhabdomyolysis and Acute Tubular Necrosis

Two of the symptoms of Rhabdomyolysis are MUSCLE STIFFNESS or ACHING
(myalgia).
Two the symptoms of Acute Tubular Necrosis are JOINT PAIN AND FLANK
PAIN.

Such a person could eventually develop one of these diseases. It's also
possible that this person might not ever develop any of these diseases
but
would just have to learn to live with muscle pains for as long as she
takes statins.
My advice to this person is to see your doctor and discuss options since
your muscle pains could mean that you may develop one of the diseases
mentioned above.
I am not a doctor or a medical expert.
I welcome your comments.
Jason

You make it sound like there is a reasonable chance of getting
Rhabdomyolysis.

To be objective you should point out that it is pretty rare.

Also, it is not true that muscle pain never goes away for any patient.

Also, why are you asking this? You come across as trying to bad mouth
statins as much as possible without actually lying. Which is what the
author of the book was doing on the back cover as I pointed out.

Bill
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

listener
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 617

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:10 am Post subject: Note

Re: Additional Info. about statins

"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in
news:Du7re.238$on5.164@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com:

Quote:

"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
news:mbSdnV8qObyPFzHfRVn-2w@comcast.com...

"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:YkPqe.8274$jS1.8168@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
news:D4KdnVMQuZts1zbfRVn-ug@comcast.com...
Bill,

Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the
danger of muscle pain?

No. I've have not seen all they wrote, but I'm guessing it was fair.
I would warn people about the risks too. Only in a fair way. Why do
you think that is relevant?

Statin muscle damage, myopathy, myositis, can lead to rhabdomyolysis.
Obviously the AHA, ACC, and NIH's NHLBI thought it was relevant.

As do I and as I mentioned. Why are you pointing out things I agree
with? Do you have anything remotely resembling a point here?

Or is it just newsgroup posters you attempt to intimidate, so
others
won't post about adverse effects? Is someone worried about adverse

No. In fact I often agree with them.

effects metrics in the ng trolling that pharmcos do, per BJM?
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1347-a?ehom

Why are you actively trying to discourage a free and open
discussion, just because it addresses statin side effects? Is
there some bonus for keeping the numbers low in the hits returned
by the pharmco webcrawlers?

Please provide proof of your claim.

For the record statins can have adverse effects and I have said that
many times before.

You have avoided the above.

Jason was not addressing the rarity of rhabdomyolysis in the normal
non-statin using population. Nor was Jason addressing the rarity
of rhabdomyolysis in the general statin-using population. Jason
was addressing the danger of potential rhabdomyolysis in a patient
already exhibiting statin myopathy.

Myopathy is common. Rhabdomyolysis is rare. So do you think it is
common in people with myopathy? Provide a source for that. Also, has
there ever been a case of Rhabdomyolysis in a patient with a
non-elevated CK level?

You have avoided the above.

Rhabdo, by the way IS a result of statin myopathy.

It is quite reasonable to assume that there is enough of a chance
for a paitient who is already exhibiting statin myopathy to go into
rhabomyolysis, however rare it is in the general population.

What do mean by "enough"? and what evidence do you have?

You have avoided the above.

Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the
danger of muscle pain?

You already asked that and I answerd it. I assume they were unbiased
in their warnings. I have also warned about it.

After all, even Scott Grundy, the all-time statin cheerleader and
apologist, and acceptor of funding from all statin pharmcos,
himself wrote the following in the
ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory

on the Use and Safety of Statins

:

"If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or
pain, with or without CK elevations, rule out common

causes such as exercise or strenuous work. Advise moderation

in activity for persons who experience these symptoms

during combination therapy.

Discontinue statin therapy (or statin and niacin or fibrate

if the patient is on combination therapy) if a CK greater

than 10 times the ULN is encountered in a patient with

muscle soreness, tenderness, or pain.

If the patient experiences muscle soreness, tenderness, or

pain with either no CK elevation or a moderate elevation (3

to 10 times the ULN), follow the patient's symptoms and

CK levels weekly until there is no longer medical concern or

symptoms worsen to the situation described previously (at

which point therapy should be discontinued). For patients

who develop muscle discomfort and/or weakness and who

also have progressive elevations of CK on serial measurements,

either a reduction of statin dose or a temporary

discontinuation may be prudent. A decision can then be

made whether or when to reinstitute statin therapy."

I agree with all of that.

You have neglected to say why you even brought this up.

What possible reason could you have to attempt to intimidate the
reasonable discussion about a common concern?

I don't have any.

What makes you think that your biased and slanted and entirely
irrational opinion of Dr. Cohen's fine book is of interest here?

I have said very little about the book. So it should be very easy to
show where I have provided biased and slanted and etirely
irrattional opinions.

Please demonstrate this. Or be shown once again to be a liar.

check this thread, that came from you to Jason regarding Dr. Cohen's
book.

I'm familar. Again you continue avoid the question. The reason is you
have no answer. If you did, you would provide an answer. Instead you
say go look at something when I've already said that something proves
you to be a liar.

Who designated you as the official mind reader of top-selling
physicians who just might be answering a large public outcry and
need to know as 'bad mouthing'?

No one. Are you a volunteer?

check this thread, that came from you to Jason regarding Dr. Cohen's
book.

That does not even make any sense at all. I see no reference to
appointees at all.

Seems you may have mistaken a look in the mirror for the back cover
of Dr. Cohen's EXCELLENT book.

You continue to just engauge in downgrading others but doing
absolutely nothing to support your case.

There is an 80-page FAQ on Statin Adverse Effects on the web for all
to see, that I created and maintain to support my case. What is your
response to the study findings in that FAQ?

http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our_statins/StatinFAQ_031305wTOCv4.pdf

That they have nothing to do with what is being discussed here. I have
agreed with most of the evidence you have posted here. What I've
disagreed with is your attacks on me.

But I had previously looked at the PDF file and it seems biased. I
don't see much in the way of positive studies on statins. Second, it
lists as side effects of Lipitor anything that happened to a large
group of people during the trial. If you take a group of 2000 people
and follow them for several months you will see a large variety of
medical conditions arise. The source you were quoting from said
"regardless of cauasality" and you left that out. That was biased.

Bill

What a shock!

L.

Robert
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1700

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: Note

Re: Additional Info. about statins

"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message >

Quote:

You don' t have to take statins if you don't want to. I thought that was
obvious from the start.

No, that is not the way the doctors portray it. There is no choice
alluded
to.
In fact, your absurd question up above in this post is how they put it:
Take
statins or have a heart attack.

Not quite what I was saying.

Even the most ardent critics of statins have conceded that if a person has a
heart attack then statins are efficacious.
There was a doctor who wrote an article about cholesterol and the amount of
open heart surgeries.
He does not believe in monitoring cholesterol and that statins are only
effective with patients who already have a heart attack.
The point I was making is you can either take statins in the hopes of
preventing a heart attack or you can wait to get a heart attack and then
take statins.
Other alternatives to statins are not fully studied so how can you equate
statins with non-statins?
What do you recommend if not a statin and show me the clinical trials?

Quote:

That does not sound like "you don't have to take statins if you don't have
to" - no, not obvious at all.

Generalizations and rhetoric, I don't know or care what doctors say or don't
say. I am not a doctor. There are clinical guidelines and protocols in
cardiology and if you don't agree with those guidelines then?
Change your doctor or the guidelines and which is more easy?
If you are not happy with your doctor then change doctors.

Quote:

No, my husband, for instance, was told repeatedly that he must take
statins
or die from a heart attack. He nearly died of the statin adverse effects.
His ongoing quality of life is very severely damaged with pain, muscle
damage, fatigue, neurological damage, cognitive damage, memory loss,
amnesia
episodes, aphasia, and other problems, all DIRECTLY resulting from Lipitor
10 mg. for 4 years. All Statin ADVERSE EFFECTS. All ongoing in damage
and
pain 3 YEARS after halting the Lipitor.

What drugs is he using to treat the pain, muscle damage, fatigue,
neurological damage, cognitive damage, memory loss, amnesia, aphasia and
other problems?

The reason I ask is because NSAIDS have a 25% increase in heart attacks.
Please list all the meds he is taking now so I can look up in the PDR and
report you all the AE listed for that drug so you can take him off them.
Aspirin, COX2, Tylenol is out. You want 100% assurance that not one single
AE will happen with any drug.

Sharon Hope
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 752

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:52 am Post subject: Note

Re: Additional Info. about statins

"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:Du7re.238$on5.164@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...

Quote:

Obviously the FAQ on Statin Adverse Effects is what it says.

It doesn't quote Shakespeare or Emily Dickenson, or tie your shoes, either.
It addresses Frequently Asked Questions on Statin Adverse Effects.

Quote:

I don't see much in the way of positive studies on statins.

Those you see in the headlines, in magazines, on commercials, snuck into
Jack Nicholson movies, in posters and planters and calendars and pens in
your doctor's office, and on the smc newsgroup.

Those seem quite biased to me - not one mentioned that some people, such as
my husband, can expect to have their lives disrupted by complete disability,
chronic pain, muscle wasting, elevated CK, ragged red fibres, fatigue,
neuropathy, peripheral neuropathy, exhaustion, extreme exercise intolerance
with muscle rigor, severe gout upon exertion due to massive releases of uric
acid to halt apoptosis, multiple witnessed attacks of witnessed transient
global amnesia, loss of memory to below the 1 percentile, cognitive damage,
aphasia, loss of business, loss of employability in mid-50's, loss of
mobility, loss of ability to conduct a normal day, and other inconveniences.

That omission seems quite biased to me, but I seem to have missed hearing
you complaining about Pfizer's bias.

Quote:

It lists as side effects over 80 pages of peer-reviewed published medical
journal abstracts concerning Statin Adverse Effects. If you have a concern
about one of them, write the journal editorial board, or the researcher.

It also lists the side effects listed in the Physician's Prescribing
Information on the Lipitor Label - if you have a concern about one of them,
write Pfizer or the FDA.

Quote:

The source you were quoting from said "regardless of cauasality" and you
left that out. That was biased.

Which of the 80+ pages of peer-reviewed published medical journal abstracts
concerning Statin Adverse Effects are your referring to? It is pointed out
that in at least one study that marginalized known adverse effects, such as
hemorrhagic stroke, that the authors tried to pass it off as "regardless of
causality" while it is listed in the PI that Pfizer publishes on Lipitor -
is that the one you are referring to?

Quote:

Bill

Bill
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 849

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:27 am Post subject: Note

Re: Additional Info. about statins

"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
news:0JudnTu2O-8ayTPfRVn-qg@comcast.com...

Quote:

"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:Du7re.238$on5.164@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...

"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
news:mbSdnV8qObyPFzHfRVn-2w@comcast.com...

"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:YkPqe.8274$jS1.8168@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
news:D4KdnVMQuZts1zbfRVn-ug@comcast.com...

There is an 80-page FAQ on Statin Adverse Effects on the web for all to
see, that I created and maintain to support my case. What is your
response to the study findings in that FAQ?

http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our_statins/StatinFAQ_031305wTOCv4.pdf

That they have nothing to do with what is being discussed here. I have
agreed with most of the evidence you have posted here. What I've disagreed
with is your attacks on me.

But I had previously looked at the PDF file and it seems biased.

Obviously the FAQ on Statin Adverse Effects is what it says.

It doesn't quote Shakespeare or Emily Dickenson, or tie your shoes, either.
It addresses Frequently Asked Questions on Statin Adverse Effects.

In other words, it presents a one sided argument which was my point. One could
also discuss the adverse affects while showing some balance so as to give the
reader a good understanding of the subject.

Quote:

I don't see much in the way of positive studies on statins.

Those you see in the headlines, in magazines, on commercials, snuck into
Jack Nicholson movies, in posters and planters and calendars and pens in
your doctor's office, and on the smc newsgroup.

Really - could you name just one Nicholson movie that discusses studies. How
does one get that on a pen?

What I said was:

"I don't see much in the way of positive studies on statins."

Then you change it around to something entirely different and comment on that.
That is because you are not able to address the issues being disscussed or are
unable to focus on them. So you change the subject from studies to pens.

Quote:

Those seem quite biased to me - not one mentioned that some people, such as
my husband, can expect to have their lives disrupted by complete disability,
chronic pain, muscle wasting, elevated CK, ragged red fibres, fatigue,
neuropathy, peripheral neuropathy, exhaustion, extreme exercise intolerance
with muscle rigor, severe gout upon exertion due to massive releases of uric
acid to halt apoptosis, multiple witnessed attacks of witnessed transient
global amnesia, loss of memory to below the 1 percentile, cognitive damage,
aphasia, loss of business, loss of employability in mid-50's, loss of
mobility, loss of ability to conduct a normal day, and other inconveniences.

That omission seems quite biased to me,

Again you are changing words around and then addressing a totally different
question. What you were referring to was the bias in:

" Jack Nicholson movies, in posters and planters and calendars and pens in
your doctor's office, and on the smc newsgroup."

You do not think clearly. Why would a situation similiar to your husband need
to appear in any of these. And you are clearly lying about the SMC newsgroup
because you just mentioned those in it.

What does any particular case have to do with the general subject - beyond it
being an emotional issue for you? You have described your husband's situation
previously and I recall what you wrote.

Quote:

but I seem to have missed hearing you complaining about Pfizer's bias.

They are obviously biased and I don't dwell on what is obviously true.
However, they do mention quite clearly the drug's side effect on their site.

And I agree with you, you have clearly missed my complaining about the drug
companies in general.

Again why do you bring that up and what does what you have or have not missed
have to do with anything? People get sick and die from many things. You roll
the dice in life. I agree you should have good information available. But it
should tell all sides. You complain about Pfizer's bias, then you use that do
justify emulating them.

Quote:

Second, it lists as side effects of Lipitor anything that happened to a
large group of people during the trial. If you take a group of 2000 people
and follow them for several months you will see a large variety of medical
conditions arise.

It lists as side effects over 80 pages of peer-reviewed published medical
journal abstracts concerning Statin Adverse Effects. If you have a concern
about one of them, write the journal editorial board, or the researcher.

Why do you mention that I can write to them? It is obvious.

Again you are changing the subject just to avoid answering a question which
you cannot. That has absoulutely nothing to do with the question I asked.
Which is why did you provide distorted information on your site in the
specific instance I cited. Prediction: You will not answer the question.

Quote:

It also lists the side effects listed in the Physician's Prescribing
Information on the Lipitor Label - if you have a concern about one of them,
write Pfizer or the FDA.

What does this have to do with anything? I don't have any such concerns. Why
did you bring that up? You again change the subject to avoid the question.

Quote:

The source you were quoting from said "regardless of cauasality" and you
left that out. That was biased.

Which of the 80+ pages of peer-reviewed published medical journal abstracts
concerning Statin Adverse Effects are your referring to?

None of them. Again I never said that, and you change the subject because you
can not address the issue or can not understand the issue.

Quote:

It is pointed out that in at least one study that marginalized known adverse
effects, such as hemorrhagic stroke, that the authors tried to pass it off as
"regardless of causality" while it is listed in the PI that Pfizer publishes
on Lipitor - is that the one you are referring to?

Could be. You seem to list more than a hundred side effects that you imply
Pfzier claims to be side effects of Lipitor.

It says this happend it happend to people in the study group. It clearly says
the cause is not attributed to Lipitor. That is what "regardless of causality
means." You are just not able to focus at all. You are simply lying in
implying that Pfizer
says these are side effects of Lipitor. They do not.

Do you agree with that or not? Simple question.

Bill

And you have addressed none of the following:

Quote:

Bill,

Did you also chastize the AHA, NHLBI and ACC for warning about the danger
of muscle pain?

No. I've have not seen all they wrote, but I'm guessing it was fair. I
would warn people about the risks too. Only in a fair way. Why do you
think that is relevant?

Statin muscle damage, myopathy, myositis, can lead to rhabdomyolysis.
Obviously the AHA, ACC, and NIH's NHLBI thought it was relevant.

As do I and as I mentioned. Why are you pointing out things I agree with? Do
you have anything remotely resembling a point here?

Quote:

You have avoided the above.

Quote:

You have avoided the above.

Quote:

You have avoided the above.

Quote:

You have neglected to say why you even brought this up.

Quote:

That does not even make any sense at all. I see no reference to appointees at
all.

Google

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