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Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO
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ummwellduh
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

of course no tricks, like narrowing eyelids (squinting) or producing
visible tears etc
the so called pupil control *is* allowed


ummwellduh wrote:
Quote:
hello all

i am interested in knowing what each of you [expert or not] personally
think about this. pls use all the scientific or otherwise knowledge you
possess, just personal opinions, based on our education, religious
beliefs and misconceptions, erasoned judgement, ... all the shabang,
and the final gist of it.

Just answer in YES/NO

Question: Is it possible for *at least one* person with elongated
eyeball myopia [not the other temporary kind] to improve sight and get
better unaided far vision [he may use them while improving], without
any invasive/medical procedures. If you have seen even one case, or
think it is million to one shot, please respond YES, otherwise NO.

thanks for your input
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Robert Redelmeier
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

ummwellduh <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote in part:
Quote:
Question: Is it possible for *at least one* person with
elongated eyeball myopia [not the other temporary kind]
to improve sight and get better unaided far vision [he may
use them while improving], without any invasive/medical
procedures. If you have seen even one case, or think it is
million to one shot, please respond YES, otherwise NO.

Who cares? It is impossible to formally prove a negative
because you cannot enumerate the full population.

The real question is whether the odds against improvement are
worth the costs of trying and failing. A failed treatment has
very high patient costs in terms of safety and self-confidence.

Quote:
thanks for your input

You are welcome.

-- Robert
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ummwellduh
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

i have not asked proofs....i am least interested in proofs
just one's personal opinion one might have formed based on their
education, training, experience with patients, own personal
experience, misconceptions, beliefs etc etc.

ie in a word, upto the present moment whats their take on this
question.
They need not put their professional reputation behind it, because it
is only
a part of what they are. but it would definitely be interesting coming
from a prefessional (bcoz they are more exposed to incidents in their
field)

as for costs of treatment, you need not back it up with a treatment
plan.
can one start on any treatment with a plain YES/NO??!!



Robert Redelmeier wrote:
Quote:
ummwellduh <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote in part:
Question: Is it possible for *at least one* person with
elongated eyeball myopia [not the other temporary kind]
to improve sight and get better unaided far vision [he may
use them while improving], without any invasive/medical
procedures. If you have seen even one case, or think it is
million to one shot, please respond YES, otherwise NO.

Who cares? It is impossible to formally prove a negative
because you cannot enumerate the full population.

The real question is whether the odds against improvement are
worth the costs of trying and failing. A failed treatment has
very high patient costs in terms of safety and self-confidence.

thanks for your input

You are welcome.

-- Robert
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acemanvx@yahoo.com
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 732

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:25 am    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

ummwellduh wrote:
Quote:
hello all

i am interested in knowing what each of you [expert or not] personally
think about this. pls use all the scientific or otherwise knowledge you
possess, just personal opinions, based on our education, religious
beliefs and misconceptions, erasoned judgement, ... all the shabang,
and the final gist of it.

Just answer in YES/NO

Question: Is it possible for *at least one* person with elongated
eyeball myopia [not the other temporary kind] to improve sight and get
better unaided far vision [he may use them while improving], without
any invasive/medical procedures. If you have seen even one case, or
think it is million to one shot, please respond YES, otherwise NO.

thanks for your input


Probably not. Once your eyeball enlongates into axial myopia, its
permanent. Sorry to say. This is why Otis preaches and advocates
prevention at the treshold. What is your prescription now and how old
were you when you got your first glasses? You may be able to relieve
tonic accomodation which will reduce your prescription. OrthoK can
further reduce your myopia. Theres lasik and even IOLs but both options
are risky and may ruin your clear correctable vision.
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Quick
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 343

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:38 am    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

ummwellduh wrote:
Quote:
i have not asked proofs....i am least interested in proofs

can one start on any treatment with a plain YES/NO??!!

Care to state your agenda?

-Quick
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Mike Tyner
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1299

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

"ummwellduh" <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote

Quote:
Question: Is it possible for *at least one* person with elongated
eyeball myopia [not the other temporary kind] to improve sight and get
better unaided far vision [he may use them while improving], without
any invasive/medical procedures.

Is it possible to reverse myopia by changing the physical properties of the
eye with effort or training or exercise?

Short answer, no. Don't waste your time.

Is it possible to slow the progress of myopia with effort or training or
exercise?

Myopia specialists don't believe so. The FDA doesn't think so. Respected
authorities don't approve of the practice because nothing has been found
that works, when compared to nontreated controls.

There are astounding stories of "recovery" from myopia but the evidence says
they would have happened with or without treatment. Eventually, about half
of all myopes improve to some degree.

In some it is early, as they release excess accommodation. This process
_can_ respond to training and _can_ be dramatic so this is the source for
most "miracle cures."

Other myopes improve later, between 25 and 50, usually just 0.50 to 1.00
diopter. The chemistry (index gradient) of the crystalline lens starts
changing with age, affecting everyone, not just myopes.

But either way, spontaneous "improvement" is so common that it's easy to
misinterpret as "miraculous."

-MT, OD
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biscuit
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 296

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:09 am    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

Mike Tyner wrote:

Quote:

Is it possible to slow the progress of myopia with effort or training
or exercise?

Myopia specialists don't believe so. The FDA doesn't think so.
Respected authorities don't approve of the practice because nothing
has been found that works, when compared to nontreated controls.


How about by not reading or doing as much close work? I think there
_is_ science to connect close work to the development of myopia, right?
Whether this "cure" is worse than the disease is another question.
--
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acemanvx@yahoo.com
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 732

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

Mike Tyner wrote:
Quote:
"ummwellduh" <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote

Question: Is it possible for *at least one* person with elongated
eyeball myopia [not the other temporary kind] to improve sight and get
better unaided far vision [he may use them while improving], without
any invasive/medical procedures.

Is it possible to reverse myopia by changing the physical properties of the
eye with effort or training or exercise?

Short answer, no. Don't waste your time.

Is it possible to slow the progress of myopia with effort or training or
exercise?

Myopia specialists don't believe so. The FDA doesn't think so. Respected
authorities don't approve of the practice because nothing has been found
that works, when compared to nontreated controls.

There are astounding stories of "recovery" from myopia but the evidence says
they would have happened with or without treatment. Eventually, about half
of all myopes improve to some degree.

In some it is early, as they release excess accommodation. This process
_can_ respond to training and _can_ be dramatic so this is the source for
most "miracle cures."

Other myopes improve later, between 25 and 50, usually just 0.50 to 1.00
diopter. The chemistry (index gradient) of the crystalline lens starts
changing with age, affecting everyone, not just myopes.

But either way, spontaneous "improvement" is so common that it's easy to
misinterpret as "miraculous."

-MT, OD


"Is it possible to slow the progress of myopia with effort or training
or
exercise?


Myopia specialists don't believe so. The FDA doesn't think so.
Respected
authorities don't approve of the practice because nothing has been
found
that works, when compared to nontreated controls."


It is possible to slow down or even stop myopia progression, just not
reverse it(unless its just tonic accomodation) Otis plus lens theory
has been tried on many with much success. Eye exercises will also work
wonders. Reducing near work is another way to slow down myopia.


Excess accomodation is probably the main reason why most people(under
40) respond to natural vision improvement, but hey it works. It just
cant shorten your eye. I am getting atropine soon to do away with
excess accomodation and reduce my dependancy on what is overminus
glasses. My uncorrected vision may improve on the order of several
times as well, making me much more functional without glasses.
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Mike Tyner
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1299

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

<acemanvx@yahoo.com> wrote

Quote:
cant shorten your eye. I am getting atropine soon to do away with
excess accomodation and reduce my dependancy on what is overminus
glasses. My uncorrected vision may improve on the order of several
times as well, making me much more functional without glasses.

So the effect of atropine will be permanent?

-MT
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ummwellduh
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

i want to get the gist of each person's research, education,
experience, belief,
brainwashing etc regarding this issue and avoid running around
understanding
the complicated experiments an what they signify, and whether or not
they apply to
humans...thats why i want to know the *personal* opinion not
professional one [although
t can be based on [professional knowledge]
........
and then try out [or not] non invasive, safe [according to me],
relatively easy
[ie not requiring revolutionary changes in daily life] stuff to improve
unaided vision.


Quick wrote:
Quote:
ummwellduh wrote:
i have not asked proofs....i am least interested in proofs

can one start on any treatment with a plain YES/NO??!!

Care to state your agenda?

-Quick
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Robert Redelmeier
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

ummwellduh <contactsn@gmail.com> wrote in part:
Quote:
i want to get the gist of each person's research, education,
experience, belief, brainwashing etc regarding this issue and
avoid running around understanding the complicated experiments an
what they signify, and whether or not they apply to humans...thats
why i want to know the *personal* opinion not professional one
[although t can be based on [professional knowledge] .......
and then try out [or not] non invasive, safe [according to me],
relatively easy [ie not requiring revolutionary changes in daily
life] stuff to improve unaided vision.

You want data from people, yet aren't saying how you will use it.
Impolite, and it would be irresponsible to provide data under
such conditions.

It is good you recognize you have a decision to make, so let
me show you a different approach:

There is a cost to wearing minus lenses to correct myopia, maybe
a net discounted lifetime cost about 1000 hours of wasted effort.
There is a cost to trying Bates or other exercises, say 40 hours
if it works and 100 hours if it does not (from the frustration,
mistakes & extra effort).

Trying is only mathematically worth it if there is a 9.4% or
greater chance of success. I doubt randomized statistics would
support a success rate anywhere near that. Probably several
orders of magnatude lower. At that point, it becomes a foolish
and dangerous hope, worse than a lottery ticket.

Ethical physicians would not advise a patient even try unless
they felt the patient unusually likely to succeeed, or unusually
tolerant of failure (not easily frustrated). I doubt either
applies in your case.

But still, physicians are not veterinarians and patients are
not meat. The patients own values and wishes must be considered
even if wildly different from the physicians, and advised according
to their values. Or referred if the gulf is too great.

-- Robert
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Dr Judy
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

ummwellduh wrote:
Quote:
hello all

i am interested in knowing what each of you [expert or not] personally
think about this. pls use all the scientific or otherwise knowledge you
possess, just personal opinions, based on our education, religious
beliefs and misconceptions, erasoned judgement, ... all the shabang,
and the final gist of it.

Just answer in YES/NO

Question: Is it possible for *at least one* person with elongated
eyeball myopia [not the other temporary kind] to improve sight and get
better unaided far vision [he may use them while improving], without
any invasive/medical procedures. If you have seen even one case, or
think it is million to one shot, please respond YES, otherwise NO.

Myopes and non myopes may see a change in refraction over time either
increase or decrease in the myopic direction, usually due to aging
changes in the lens. These changes are not uncommon, the patient was
not trying to achieve the change and we see them in practice almost
daily.

If you mean can myopes reduce their myopia via eye exercises, foods,
herbal supplements, avoiding near work etc etc, then my answer would be
no.

Dr Judy
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otisbrown@pa.net
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1447

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

ummwellduh wrote:
Quote:
i want to get the gist of each person's research, education,
experience, belief,
brainwashing etc regarding this issue and avoid running around
understanding
the complicated experiments an what they signify, and whether or not
they apply to
humans...thats why i want to know the *personal* opinion not
professional one [although
t can be based on [professional knowledge]
.......
and then try out [or not] non invasive, safe [according to me],
relatively easy
[ie not requiring revolutionary changes in daily life] stuff to improve
unaided vision.

Dear Friend,

If you read Dr. Judy's post -- then any "clearing" you might
experience is a matter of "random" chance. You
should factor her judgment into any judgment or decision you
might make.

You will find that the "experts" profoundly DISAGREE on
PREVENTION. Some say it is possiible, others, impossible.

What ever you decide, I would suggest that you
post your current "prescription", and that
you personally determine what you can read
on your Snellen.

When you say "improvement" is it wise to understand
your "starting" point -- and your desired "end-point",
and the PROBABILITY that you can reach your
desired goal -- or not.

And as you say -- with very slight effort.

Quote:
From what I have seen, I would suggest that if you
are in any "deeper" than about 20/60 -- you

probably will not be successful.

Assuming minimum effort.

But good luck. Let us know what you decide.

Best,

Otis
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ummwellduh
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

Robert Redelmeier wrote:

Quote:
You want data from people, yet aren't saying how you will use it.
Impolite, and it would be irresponsible to provide data under
such conditions.

i did give people upfront 'thanks' for their "data" [YES/NO]
people can just take it and not even provide any data, that is also
fine by me. although i didnt get any pointed YES/NO from you,
i observed that you did pick up the freebee 'thanks'!

Quote:
It is good you recognize you have a decision to make, so let
me show you a different approach:

oh no!

Quote:

There is a cost to wearing minus lenses to correct myopia, maybe
a net discounted lifetime cost about 1000 hours of wasted effort.
There is a cost to trying Bates or other exercises, say 40 hours
if it works and 100 hours if it does not (from the frustration,
mistakes & extra effort).


too computational...

Quote:
Trying is only mathematically worth it if there is a 9.4% or
greater chance of success. I doubt randomized statistics would
support a success rate anywhere near that. Probably several
orders of magnatude lower. At that point, it becomes a foolish
and dangerous hope, worse than a lottery ticket.

*not* interested in proofs, theories, statistics....

Quote:
Ethical physicians would not advise a patient even try unless
they felt the patient unusually likely to succeeed, or unusually

i dont know how to identify an ethical person from unethical.....
let alone physicians....[_and_ i dont want to know *how*...]

Quote:
tolerant of failure (not easily frustrated). I doubt either
applies in your case.
But still, physicians are not veterinarians and patients are
not meat. The patients own values and wishes must be considered
even if wildly different from the physicians, and advised according
to their values. Or referred if the gulf is too great.

thats a personal opinion i dont remember asking!
and a these seem like good reasons not to tell 'how I would use it
[*data*]'

Quote:

-- Robert
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ummwellduh
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Can a myope improve unaided sight - YES or NO Reply with quote

otisbrown@pa.net wrote:
Quote:
ummwellduh wrote:
i want to get the gist of each person's research, education,
experience, belief,
brainwashing etc regarding this issue and avoid running around
understanding
the complicated experiments an what they signify, and whether or not
they apply to
humans...thats why i want to know the *personal* opinion not
professional one [although
t can be based on [professional knowledge]
.......
and then try out [or not] non invasive, safe [according to me],
relatively easy
[ie not requiring revolutionary changes in daily life] stuff to improve
unaided vision.

Dear Friend,

If you read Dr. Judy's post -- then any "clearing" you might
experience is a matter of "random" chance. You
should factor her judgment into any judgment or decision you
might make.

i would consider it lucky to be that 'random' case

Quote:

You will find that the "experts" profoundly DISAGREE on
PREVENTION. Some say it is possiible, others, impossible.

i guess i am beyond 'prevention' stage...not so young anymore

Quote:
What ever you decide, I would suggest that you
post your current "prescription", and that
you personally determine what you can read
on your Snellen.
When you say "improvement" is it wise to understand
your "starting" point -- and your desired "end-point",
and the PROBABILITY that you can reach your
desired goal -- or not.

i am not sure if i want to make it another 'project'
measuring and tracking it in a 'professional' way..
and i am not entering any snellen chart contest...
so it is fine if it is just a qualitative 'improvment',
i am not trying to prove any one method's effictiveness
in any quantitavie way.... i will know when i see clearly,
regardless of what the chart or statistics say...

Quote:
And as you say -- with very slight effort.

From what I have seen, I would suggest that if you
are in any "deeper" than about 20/60 -- you
probably will not be successful.

Assuming minimum effort.

i am not sure "effort" is the way to go ...

Quote:

But good luck. Let us know what you decide.

Best,

Otis

thanks
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