FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   PreferencesPreferences   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Forum index » Medicine forums » vision
Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction!
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 2 [17 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page:  1, 2 Next
Author Message
Mike Tyner
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1299

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

<acemanvx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1153196987.570376.308060@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote:


If any tonic accomodation returns after my
atropine wears off, ill just exercise it
away. Ill be wearing glasses that correct
my true axial myopia.

And missing exits on the interstate.

-MT
Back to top
acemanvx@yahoo.com
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 732

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

retinula wrote:
Quote:
do you think that getting a simple trial lens set and sitting in front
of an acuity chart under bright light will give you a good refraction?
do you think that there are any other refractive problems aside from
simple myopia? don't you think that ciliary muscle contraction and
pseudomyopia have any influence in a persons day-to-day visual acuity?



A trial lens set will give you an estimate. So will measuring how far
away you can see clearly. A professional eye doctor will give me an
exact manifast and cycloplegic refraction using his phororaptor. By the
way, a proper refraction should be taken in a dimly lit room because
bright light can skew the results due to pinhole effect. my
pseudomyopia is the main reason why I want atropine cycloplegia.


Quote:
who cares about meeting this minimum visual acuity requirement.
somehow you think this BMV-derived standard is the only level of acuity
that we should attempt to attain. seeing 20/40 sucks, especially when
you're driving on a winding two-lane road at night in the rain.


In Otis' defense, I think he means that WITHOUT correction. If your
eyes are that bad for full time correction then it makes sense to
correct you best as possible, but an undercorrection is a good idea for
close work like reading, eating, computer or to relieve tonic
accomodation. But if your eyes arent bad, why bother with the wretched
minus lens which will just make your eyes worse and cause tonic
accomodation?


Quote:
I think it would be a better "learning" path that to attempt
anything with atropine-sulfate.


who cares what you think?

Further, some people have a "reaction" to that drug -- and I think
and ophthamologist would warn you about these "secondary" effects.


and plus lenses induce diplopia in some people too.



Ill take my chances with cycloplegia in order to improve my vision and
do away with tonic accomodation which is a real problem for me as I
cant see well from near with glasses. Its either that or presbyopia and
I sure hope I am not presbyopic at 24!



Anon, then ill just use a 4 day regime. Am I supposed to return to the
doctors office immediately after the final dosage on the 4th day? How
long does it take for cycloplegia to start wearing off? If any tonic
accomodation returns after my atropine wears off, ill just exercise it
away. Ill be wearing glasses that correct my true axial myopia.
Back to top
Anon E. Muss
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

On 17 Jul 2006 01:06:06 -0700, acemanvx@yahoo.com wrote:

Quote:
I am going to schedule an appointment with an ophthamologist. Well see
what he says, but ill be sure to mention my tonic accomodation and at
least 4 day atropine regime to make sure to unlock every bit of tonic
accomodation. Would more than 4 days make a difference?

No.

[snip]

Quote:
Would it be possible that maybe the tonic accomodation wont return?

Sure, as long as you don't continue using atropine drops twice a day.
Back to top
retinula@hotmail.com
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

otisbrown@pa.net wrote:
Quote:
Dear AceMan,

I personally DISLIKE the effect of a myadric. Even the mild cyclogel
-- that lasts about 3 to 6 hours.

I personally doubt that you will accomplish very much by your 4 day
'"test".

Your "manifest" is good -- so far.

If you are going to spend money -- I would suggest obtain a trial lens
kit (or make one us from Zenni-optical lenses. That way you
can read your Snellen, and find out the minimum strength
minus needed to bring you up to 20/20 -- in day light.


do you think that getting a simple trial lens set and sitting in front
of an acuity chart under bright light will give you a good refraction?
do you think that there are any other refractive problems aside from
simple myopia? don't you think that ciliary muscle contraction and
pseudomyopia have any influence in a persons day-to-day visual acuity?


Quote:
And further, the MINIMUM minus lens required to clear the
20/40 line -- again in day light.

who cares about meeting this minimum visual acuity requirement.
somehow you think this BMV-derived standard is the only level of acuity
that we should attempt to attain. seeing 20/40 sucks, especially when
you're driving on a winding two-lane road at night in the rain.


Quote:
I think it would be a better "learning" path that to attempt
anything with atropine-sulfate.


who cares what you think?

Quote:
Further, some people have a "reaction" to that drug -- and I think
and ophthamologist would warn you about these "secondary" effects.


and plus lenses induce diplopia in some people too.
Back to top
otisbrown@pa.net
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1447

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

Dear AceMan,

I personally DISLIKE the effect of a myadric. Even the mild cyclogel
-- that lasts about 3 to 6 hours.

I personally doubt that you will accomplish very much by your 4 day
'"test".

Your "manifest" is good -- so far.

If you are going to spend money -- I would suggest obtain a trial lens
kit (or make one us from Zenni-optical lenses. That way you
can read your Snellen, and find out the minimum strength
minus needed to bring you up to 20/20 -- in day light.

And further, the MINIMUM minus lens required to clear the
20/40 line -- again in day light.

The Zenni-opical lenses sell for $20 for two -- if you wish to do this.

I think it would be a better "learning" path that to attempt
anything with atropine-sulfate.

Further, some people have a "reaction" to that drug -- and I think
and ophthamologist would warn you about these "secondary" effects.

Again, I wish there were a low-cost trial-frame and lenes on the
market so you could do these "experiments" wisely and effectively.

Good luck,

Otis

++++++++


acemanvx@yahoo.com wrote:
Quote:
I am going to schedule an appointment with an ophthamologist. Well see
what he says, but ill be sure to mention my tonic accomodation and at
least 4 day atropine regime to make sure to unlock every bit of tonic
accomodation. Would more than 4 days make a difference? If not 4 days
is enough and on the 4th day ill visit him for my cycloplegic
refraction, hopefully much lower than my manifast. Would it be possible
that maybe the tonic accomodation wont return?
Back to top
acemanvx@yahoo.com
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 732

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

I am going to schedule an appointment with an ophthamologist. Well see
what he says, but ill be sure to mention my tonic accomodation and at
least 4 day atropine regime to make sure to unlock every bit of tonic
accomodation. Would more than 4 days make a difference? If not 4 days
is enough and on the 4th day ill visit him for my cycloplegic
refraction, hopefully much lower than my manifast. Would it be possible
that maybe the tonic accomodation wont return?
Back to top
Anon E. Muss
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:54 am    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

On 15 Jul 2006 19:39:48 -0700, acemanvx@yahoo.com wrote:

[snip]

Quote:
Good advice. Is this as good as a week long regime of atropine?

No, but it is "good enough" in nearly all cases like yours.

A 4 day regimen of atropine prior to refraction is the "gold standard"
for cycloplegia, and as I wrote, there are times when only that will
do (e.g., accommodative esotropia in a young child).

In my experience, it does not uncover significantly more plus in the
vast majority of adults.

Quote:
I dont think id like the idea of punctal occlusion or having plugs
inserted in my tear ducts.

As far as punctal occlusion, I meant this:

<http://tinyurl.com/em32s>

Quote:
My vision is already blurry from near with glasses and if atropine
unmaks enough tonic accomodation, then great I wont need distance
glasses!

Wishful thinking.

Quote:
I have tried cyclopentolate and it was incomplete so I am going with a
regime of atropine.

Remember, the full atropine routine is 1 drop of 1% atropine sulfate
twice a day for 4 days prior to the refraction.
Back to top
acemanvx@yahoo.com
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 732

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:47 am    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

Otis, as ive already said, no one told me about the plus lens at the
treshold. I dont care if optometrist think it wont work, I have the
right to make the choice that I was never even informed about. I cant
turn time back and cant do much now except reduce my myopia. The good
side is ill never need reading glasses. I will be sure to take my
family's relatives to a second opinion optometrist
Back to top
acemanvx@yahoo.com
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 732

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

Anon E. Muss wrote:
Quote:
On 15 Jul 2006 06:39:18 -0700, acemanvx@yahoo.com wrote:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.vision/browse_thread/thread/e18f478f3432cf65/de509627d1cad4e7?lnk=raot&


the above thread talks of me planning to get a regime of atropine to
ummask all my tonic accomodation. Its highly likley I have at least a
full diopter of it and quite possible a couple diopters. If all my
astigmastim is on my cornea, there shouldnt be any changes in the
cylindar. Hopefully my cylindar goes away with natural vision
improvement as I heard straining your eyes causes your corneas to
physically distort. My cylindar has never been truly stable, changing
from time to time in diopter(s) and axis. I can do something to
exercise it away. Whatever myopia I have under cycloplegia, I should
get down to that for my manifast refraction with eye exercises. I could
be looking at a major reduction in glasses dependancy depending how
things go! Smile Smile :)

I know you wrote you tried cyclopentolate in the above mentioned
thread, but you may want to have your doctor try it again in the
following regimen:

1 drop of 1%* cyclopentolate with punctal occlusion, wait 5 min.
1 drop of 1% tropicamide with punctal occlusion, wait 5 min.
1 drop of 2.5% phenylephrine with punctal occlusion, wait 5 min.
1 drop of 1% cyclopentolate with punctal occlusion, wait 5 min.

Begin refraction 60 minutes after 1st drop. And test NRA/PRA with
+2.50D Add at 40cm. Retinoscopy can detect fluctuating or lingering
accommodation also.

24 hours of near blur is a lot better than a week of it.

I almost never use atropine to refract patients. First of all, it
typically needs to be used for 3-4 days prior to refracting for full
effect. It can dilate pupils for two weeks. Plus, I normally get
what I consider to be "reasonable cycloplegia" with the above
cyclopentolate regimen.

For blue eyed, Caucasian patients, the cyclopentolate regimen is
almost always adequate. For dark skin, darkly pigmented irides,
sometimes only atropine will do.

I will use atropine for amblyopia penalization therapy, severe
uveitis/hyphema, accommodative esotropia refraction, prior to referral
for strabismus surgery, etc.

Nevertheless, if you came into my office insisting on an atropine
refraction, I "see" no reason why I wouldn't "accommodate" you (pun
intended).

* I don't use 2% cyclopentolate ever.


Good advice. Is this as good as a week long regime of atropine? I dont
think id like the idea of punctal occlusion or having plugs inserted in
my tear ducts. Also with atropine, this will be the most complete
cycloplegia and while my mydrisis will last 2 weeks, ill deal with it,
I stay home most of the time anyway. My vision is already blurry from
near with glasses and if atropine unmaks enough tonic accomodation,
then great I wont need distance glasses! In fact the more tonic
accomodation I have, the better because I can exercise it away and ill
be less myopic for real! If atropine takes 4 days to fully work, ill
get a 5-7 day regime and at the end, see him again for another
refraction. I have tried cyclopentolate and it was incomplete so I am
going with a regime of atropine.
Back to top
otisbrown@pa.net
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1447

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

Dear Mike,

You keep on jumping to CONCLUSIONS -- about many issues.

I NEVER use the word "cure" -- as you do.

I do ACCEPT that you can not deliver "prevention" -- and that
PREVENTION will depend on the person himself -- making
a CHOICE in this matter.

This is the same issue of Steve Leung OD making a CHOICE for
his own children when there refractive STATE is zero diopters.

That issue is critical. Steve has his CHILDREN faithfully putting
on a +2 or so lens -- for all reading.

The effect of this can be PREVENTION for them, through the grade
school, high school, college and graduate school.

But only his kids will gain the benifit of it.

This is a hard choice that ONLY a parent could make. And he
has made it that way. Others MIGHT LEARN FROM IT -- but
the more probably course of action will come from engineer-parents
who learn how to NOT repeat the mistakes of the past -- and
insist that their children wear the low-cost plus -- when their
refractive STATE is close to zero.

This is completly consistent with the Oakley-Young study which
shows that a plus -- used early -- can have the effect of PREVENTION.

But it also suggests that the use of the plus in this manner MUST BE
UNDER CONTROL OF THE PERSON WHO MAKES THIS TYPE
OF WISE CHOICE.

Maybe AceMan will be making this type of "choice" for his children,
as their refractive STATE moves from a positive to negative value.

By then I hope that MORE prevention-minded optometrists will be
SUPPORTIVE of this PREVENTIVE method.

I know how EASY that minus lens is -- how impressive -- how
it "works" in 5 minutes.

And that is a major "selling" point.

And the plus can NEVER do that. It will take the person himself
to figure that out.

Maybe AceMan will eventually do that -- for his own children.

But that will be about 15 years from now.

As you know, the person who figures out how to CLEAR his vision,
and pass all legal visual-acuity tests -- NEVER FALLS UNDER
YOUR CONTROL.

And this type of issue places the solution beyond your control.

Best,

Otis


Mike Tyner wrote:
Quote:
otisbrown@pa.net> wrote

Otis> That is about his only option. I truly WISH that AceMan had
been offered the option to ACCEPT support for plus-prevention at the
threshold.

If wishes were fishes...

you know we ALL wish you'd tell us how you can be so certain your therapy
works.

-MT
Back to top
Mike Tyner
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1299

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

<otisbrown@pa.net> wrote

Quote:
Otis> That is about his only option. I truly WISH that AceMan had
been offered the option to ACCEPT support for plus-prevention at the
threshold.

If wishes were fishes...

you know we ALL wish you'd tell us how you can be so certain your therapy
works.

-MT
Back to top
otisbrown@pa.net
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1447

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

Mike> How will that help him train his accommodation? Can't he just
take his
glasses off and read beyond his nearpoint?

Otis> That is about his only option. I truly WISH that AceMan had
been offered the option to ACCEPT support for plus-prevention at the
threshold. And, perhaps would have TURNED IT DOWN. But then, had he
done that -- there would be no doubt at all concerning who was
responsible. If that were "standard practice", the AceMan would not be
posting about this issue now -- because he would know the consequence
of negtlect of the preventive-plus. It is clear that the
preventive-plus is "difficult" -- but it is possible and wise. Only
the future (and OD parents) will determine when and how it is used.

Mike> It's an idiotic suggestion, but I do have a small antique trial
set I'd sell
for $300, ground shipping included.

Otis> AceMan wants to "make the measurements". The "ruler" method is
crude and approximate. A "better organized" method would be with a
simple trial-frame and a "reduced" set of minus lenses. That way he
could check (same as you) any vision-clearing he might experience.
That way he could "trust" himself -- with some supporting training --
and double-check any "prescription" he might receive.

Otis> I think that a "simplified" trial-lens kit could be developed
for less-than $100 -- if there were interest in doing so.

Best,

Otis


Mike Tyner wrote:
Quote:
otisbrown@pa.net> wrote

One item I wish you did have (for your measurements and experiments) is
a
low-cost trial lens kit. This would include minus lenses in 1/2
diopter steps,
and a trial-frame. Thus, using a Snellen, and the trial-frame you
could
come close to duplicating the standard-measurement methods
using the phoropter.

How will that help him train his accommodation? Can't he just take his
glasses off and read beyond his nearpoint?

It's an idiotic suggestion, but I do have a small antique trial set I'd sell
for $300, ground shipping included.

-MT
Back to top
Mike Tyner
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1299

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

<otisbrown@pa.net> wrote

Quote:
One item I wish you did have (for your measurements and experiments) is
a
low-cost trial lens kit. This would include minus lenses in 1/2
diopter steps,
and a trial-frame. Thus, using a Snellen, and the trial-frame you
could
come close to duplicating the standard-measurement methods
using the phoropter.

How will that help him train his accommodation? Can't he just take his
glasses off and read beyond his nearpoint?

It's an idiotic suggestion, but I do have a small antique trial set I'd sell
for $300, ground shipping included.

-MT
Back to top
Anon E. Muss
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

On 15 Jul 2006 06:39:18 -0700, acemanvx@yahoo.com wrote:

Quote:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.vision/browse_thread/thread/e18f478f3432cf65/de509627d1cad4e7?lnk=raot&


the above thread talks of me planning to get a regime of atropine to
ummask all my tonic accomodation. Its highly likley I have at least a
full diopter of it and quite possible a couple diopters. If all my
astigmastim is on my cornea, there shouldnt be any changes in the
cylindar. Hopefully my cylindar goes away with natural vision
improvement as I heard straining your eyes causes your corneas to
physically distort. My cylindar has never been truly stable, changing
from time to time in diopter(s) and axis. I can do something to
exercise it away. Whatever myopia I have under cycloplegia, I should
get down to that for my manifast refraction with eye exercises. I could
be looking at a major reduction in glasses dependancy depending how
things go! Smile Smile Smile

I know you wrote you tried cyclopentolate in the above mentioned
thread, but you may want to have your doctor try it again in the
following regimen:

1 drop of 1%* cyclopentolate with punctal occlusion, wait 5 min.
1 drop of 1% tropicamide with punctal occlusion, wait 5 min.
1 drop of 2.5% phenylephrine with punctal occlusion, wait 5 min.
1 drop of 1% cyclopentolate with punctal occlusion, wait 5 min.

Begin refraction 60 minutes after 1st drop. And test NRA/PRA with
+2.50D Add at 40cm. Retinoscopy can detect fluctuating or lingering
accommodation also.

24 hours of near blur is a lot better than a week of it.

I almost never use atropine to refract patients. First of all, it
typically needs to be used for 3-4 days prior to refracting for full
effect. It can dilate pupils for two weeks. Plus, I normally get
what I consider to be "reasonable cycloplegia" with the above
cyclopentolate regimen.

For blue eyed, Caucasian patients, the cyclopentolate regimen is
almost always adequate. For dark skin, darkly pigmented irides,
sometimes only atropine will do.

I will use atropine for amblyopia penalization therapy, severe
uveitis/hyphema, accommodative esotropia refraction, prior to referral
for strabismus surgery, etc.

Nevertheless, if you came into my office insisting on an atropine
refraction, I "see" no reason why I wouldn't "accommodate" you (pun
intended).

* I don't use 2% cyclopentolate ever.
Back to top
otisbrown@pa.net
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1447

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Using the near point test and a ruler, I measured my manifast refraction! Reply with quote

Dear AceMan,

I would not use atropine (bella-donna). I personally dislike the
effect, and it a drug
that should be used with discretion. I think you will find it
difficult to find
an ophthamologist to "prescribe" it for you.

Also, be aware that "vision clearing" (change of refractive state in a
positive direction)
is a very slow process. My estimate is no greater that +1/2 diopter
per year.
Transient clearing has been done by a few (from 20/70 to 20/40 or
better -- pass the DMV)
but to be truly effective, the "plus" must be continued through the
school years.

One item I wish you did have (for your measurements and experiments) is
a
low-cost trial lens kit. This would include minus lenses in 1/2
diopter steps,
and a trial-frame. Thus, using a Snellen, and the trial-frame you
could
come close to duplicating the standard-measurement methods
using the phoropter.

Good luck,

Otis

++++++++++++


acemanvx@yahoo.com wrote:
Quote:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.vision/browse_thread/thread/e18f478f3432cf65/de509627d1cad4e7?lnk=raot&


the above thread talks of me planning to get a regime of atropine to
ummask all my tonic accomodation. Its highly likley I have at least a
full diopter of it and quite possible a couple diopters. If all my
astigmastim is on my cornea, there shouldnt be any changes in the
cylindar. Hopefully my cylindar goes away with natural vision
improvement as I heard straining your eyes causes your corneas to
physically distort. My cylindar has never been truly stable, changing
from time to time in diopter(s) and axis. I can do something to
exercise it away. Whatever myopia I have under cycloplegia, I should
get down to that for my manifast refraction with eye exercises. I could
be looking at a major reduction in glasses dependancy depending how
things go! Smile Smile Smile
Back to top
Google

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 2 [17 Posts] Goto page:  1, 2 Next
View previous topic :: View next topic
The time now is Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:31 am | All times are GMT
Forum index » Medicine forums » vision
Jump to:  

Similar Topics
Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
No new posts Question about Pupillary Dilation Test procedure nickname vision 3 Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:46 pm
No new posts test tiredofyou lyme 0 Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:26 pm
No new posts what can a VO2 test show you? Notgiven nutrition 1 Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:07 pm
No new posts Rickettsia Test JohnDoe lyme 0 Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:46 pm
No new posts this is a test message budman@frozenorth.ca vision 0 Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:09 am

Copyright © 2004-2005 DeniX Solutions SRL
Other DeniX Solutions sites: email marketing campaigns , electronics forum, Science forum, Unix/Linux blog, Unix/Linux documentation, Unix/Linux forums


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.0228s ][ Queries: 16 (0.0021s) ][ GZIP on - Debug on ]