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Autism: It's not ancient, it's new.
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\"Jan Drew\"
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 353

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

"Mark Probert" <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:j1Ptg.7$po4.0@fe10.lga...
Quote:
john wrote:
"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1307061040300001@66-52-22-100.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
In article <nuudnZfIWI7w4yvZRVnyvA@bt.com>, "john" <sc@nospam.com
wrote:

"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1207061046560001@66-52-22-53.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
John,
Thanks for your post. Thanks also for your concern for children. I do
believe (but have NO proof) that there were autistic children during
those
years before we had any vaccines. Let's assume that mercury is the
cause
of autism. If that is true, it means that some of those children (that
lived in ancient times) would have developed autism if they were
exposed
to mercury. Since there were NO vaccines containing mercury in those
days--the rates of autism would have been lower in those days. The type
of
mercury in fish (methylmercury) is even more dangerous than the type of
mercury in thimerosal.
Jason

"You couldn't even construct a study that shows thimerosal is safe. It's
just too darn toxic. If you inject thimerosal into an animal, its brain
will sicken. If you apply it to living tissue, the cells die. If you put
it in a petri dish, the culture dies. Knowing these things, it would be
shocking if one could inject it into an infant without causing
damage." ----Dr. Boyd Haley, Professor and Chair, Dept. of Chemistry,
University of Kentucky and one of the world's leading authorities on
mercury toxicity. (Excerpt from Deadly Immunity)

Boyd Haley's antics are addressed:

Oh...really?
Quote:

http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/102/plaintiffs-gambit-failed-rhogam-decision

Haley is/was a professor of chemistry who utters the mantra "Thimerosal is
49.X% mercury" when he knows damn well that this is meaningless in
chemistry.

Speaking of antics...wait add DISHONESTY.

In the Matter of Mark Probert (Admitted as Mark S. Probert), a
Suspended Attorney, Respondent.
Grievance Committee for the Tenth Judicial District, Petitioner.

92-02731

SUPREME COURT OF NEW YORK, APPELLATE DIVISION, SECOND DEPARTMENT

183 A.D.2d 282; 590 N.Y.S.2d 747

November 9, 1992, Decided

PRIOR HISTORY: [***1]

Disciplinary proceedings instituted by the Grievance Committee for the
Tenth Judicial District. Respondent was admitted to the Bar on
February 15, 1978, at a term of the Appellate Division of the Supreme
Court in the Second Judicial Department, under the name Mark S.
Probert.

DISPOSITION: Ordered that the petitioner's motion to impose discipline
upon the respondent based upon his failure to appear or answer is
granted; and it is further,

HEADNOTES: Attorney and Client - Disciplinary Proceedings

Respondent attorney, who is charged with 22 counts of failing to
cooperate with investigations of alleged misconduct by the Grievance
Committee, and who has failed to answer or appear, is disbarred.

COUNSEL:

Frank A. Finnerty, Jr., Westbury (Muriel L. Gennosa of counsel), for
petitioner.

JUDGES: Mangano, P. J., Thompson, Bracken, Sullivan and Harwood, JJ.,
concur.

Ordered that the petitioner's motion to impose discipline upon the
respondent based upon his failure to appear or answer is granted; and
it is further,

Ordered that pursuant to Judiciary Law 90, effective immediately,
the respondent, Mark Probert, is disbarred and his name is stricken
from the roll of attorneys and counselors-at-law; and it is further,

Ordered that the respondent shall continue to comply with this Court's
rules governing the conduct of disbarred, suspended and resigned
attorneys (22 NYCRR 691.10); and it is further,

Ordered that pursuant to Judiciary [***2] Law 90, the respondent,
Mark Probert, is commanded to continue to desist and refrain (1) from
practicing law in any form, either as principal or as agent, clerk or
employee of another, (2) from appearing as an attorney or
counselor-at-law before any court, Judge, Justice, board, commission
or other public authority, (3) from giving to another an opinion as to
the law or its application or any advice in relation thereto, and (4)
from holding himself out in any way as an attorney and
counselor-at-law.

OPINIONBY: Per Curiam.

OPINION: [*282]

[**747] By decision and order of this Court dated September 29,
1989, the respondent was suspended from the practice of law until the
further order of this Court based upon his failure to cooperate with
the Grievance Committee. By further order of this Court dated June 4,
1992, the Grievance Committee was authorized to institute and
prosecute a disciplinary proceeding [*283] against the respondent
and the Honorable Moses M. Weinstein was appointed as Special Referee.

[**748] A notice of petition and petition was personally served upon
the respondent on July 2, 1992. No answer was forthcoming. The
petitioner now moves to hold the [***3] respondent in default. The
motion was personally served upon the respondent on August 14, 1992.
The respondent has failed to submit any papers in response to the
default motion.

The charges involve 22 counts of the respondent's failure to cooperate
with the Grievance Committee in its investigations into complaints of
professional misconduct.

The charges, if established, would require the imposition of a
disciplinary sanction against the respondent. Since the respondent has
chosen not to appear or answer in these proceedings, the charges must
be deemed established. The petitioner's motion to hold the respondent
in default and impose discipline is, therefore, granted. Accordingly,
the respondent is disbarred and his name is stricken from the roll of
attorneys and counselors-at-law, effective immediately

Source:

NY UNIFIED COURT SYSTEM, ATTORNEY REGIST. UNIT

Currency Status:

ARCHIVE RECORD

NAME & PROFESSIONAL INFORMATION

Name:

MARK PROBERT

Date Of Birth:

11/XX/1946

Gender:

MALE

Address:

1698 WEBSTER AVE

MERRICK, NY 11566

County:

NASSAU

Phone:

516-968-5572

EMPLOYER INFORMATION

Employer:

MARK S PROBERT ESQ

Organization:

PERSON

LICENSING INFORMATION

Licensing Agency:

NY STATE OFFICE OF COURT ADMINISTRATION

License/Certification Type:

ATTORNEY

License Number:

1253889

Issue Date:

00/00/1978

License Status:

DISBARRED

License State:

NY
Back to top
Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

john wrote:
Quote:
"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1307061040300001@66-52-22-100.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
In article <nuudnZfIWI7w4yvZRVnyvA@bt.com>, "john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote:

"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1207061046560001@66-52-22-53.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
John,
Thanks for your post. Thanks also for your concern for children. I do
believe (but have NO proof) that there were autistic children during
those
years before we had any vaccines. Let's assume that mercury is the cause
of autism. If that is true, it means that some of those children (that
lived in ancient times) would have developed autism if they were exposed
to mercury. Since there were NO vaccines containing mercury in those
days--the rates of autism would have been lower in those days. The type
of
mercury in fish (methylmercury) is even more dangerous than the type of
mercury in thimerosal.
Jason

"You couldn't even construct a study that shows thimerosal is safe. It's
just too darn toxic. If you inject thimerosal into an animal, its brain will
sicken. If you apply it to living tissue, the cells die. If you put it in a
petri dish, the culture dies. Knowing these things, it would be shocking if
one could inject it into an infant without causing damage." ----Dr. Boyd
Haley, Professor and Chair, Dept. of Chemistry, University of Kentucky and
one of the world's leading authorities on mercury toxicity. (Excerpt from
Deadly Immunity)

Boyd Haley's antics are addressed:

http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/102/plaintiffs-gambit-failed-rhogam-decision

Haley is/was a professor of chemistry who utters the mantra "Thimerosal
is 49.X% mercury" when he knows damn well that this is meaningless in
chemistry.
Back to top
Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

Jason Johnson wrote:
Quote:
In article <xPSdnQt10am4CCvZRVnyrA@bt.com>, "john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote:

"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1307061040300001@66-52-22-100.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John,
I am responding to both of your posts. I agree that mercury and other
heavy metals MAY be the cause of autism. Scientists are still NOT 100 per
cent
sure related to the cause of autism. Thimerosal has already been removed
from most vaccines. Before the end of next year, thimerosal will probably
not be used in any vaccines. It's my GUESS that children will still
develop autism since mercury is in our environment. The type of mercury in
fish is even more dangerous than the type of mercury in vaccines. I was
told that the type of mercury in dental fillings is more dangerous than
the type of mercury in vaccines. I hope that the next step is to remove
mercury from all dental fillings. It's possible that various other heavy
metals and harmful chemicals
may also cause autism. I hope that the scientists (in the near future) are
able to discover the cause of autism.
Thanks for your post,
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They would say the vaccine stuff is safer, in truth there is NO SAFE dose of
mercury, and they alraedy know vaccines cause most autism.

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/mmr54.html

the evidence is now overwhelming, despite the misinformation from the
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Academy of
Pediatrics and the Institute of Medicine. The (Pretending to) Combat Autism
Act By Bernard Rimland
I am no longer "trying to dig up evidence to prove" vaccines cause autism.
There is already abundant evidence,...... This debate is not scientific but
is political. --- [July 9, 2006 Blog/letter] Discovering the causes,
treatment of autism ----David Ayoub, MD

"In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an
issue as you're ever going to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up
under the guise of protecting the vaccine program. And I'm for the vaccine
program. You keep covering it up and your not going to have a vaccine
program," Geier

"For the past few years much of my lab's work has focused on autism,
including an evaluation of the possible contribution of thimerosal, the
ethylmercury-containing vaccine preservative. .....Let me state
unequivocally that there is strong scientific evidence linking thimerosal to
autism." [Media Letter 3 July, 2006] Unequivocally, There is Strong Evidence
Linking Thimerosal to Autism

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John,
I have read reports and research studies that indicate that mercury is the
cause of autism. I have read other reports and research studies that
indicate that mercury is NOT the cause of autism. In other words,
scientists are not 100 per cent sure related to the cause of autism.

Incorrect. The scientists who are saying it is the cause are
speculating, since they have no proof it is the cause. The scientists
who are saying that it is not the cause, have substantial scientific
studies and epidemiological studies to base their opinions on.

Not all opinions are created equally. One has to look at what they are
based on. This is the fundamental philosophy of the Daubert decision,
which threw out two of the witnesses who were claiming that there is a
connection.

Just
Quote:
because you are certain that mercury is the cause of autism does not mean
that almost every scientist agrees with you. It's my opinion based upon
what I have read that autism is caused by heavy metals. Dangerous
chemicals may also cause autism. I agree that thimerosal should be removed
from all vaccines. I also believe that dental fillings should not contain
mercury. We agree related to most of these issues.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to top
Rich
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 585

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

"Jan Drew" <jdrew1374@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Z_mtg.64514$fb2.49494@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
Quote:

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zW5tg.7614$cd3.1426@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...


This points to an inability to examine evidence and think.

Jeff

No, it points to a blatant lie.

No, it's NOT a lie. A lie is "I posted it with the permission of the
author."

YOU are a PROVEN liar and a thief, Jan. That's no lie.
--


--Rich

Recommended websites:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/
Back to top
Jason
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1119

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

In article <xPSdnQt10am4CCvZRVnyrA@bt.com>, "john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote:

"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1307061040300001@66-52-22-100.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...

Quote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John,
I am responding to both of your posts. I agree that mercury and other
heavy metals MAY be the cause of autism. Scientists are still NOT 100 per
cent
sure related to the cause of autism. Thimerosal has already been removed
from most vaccines. Before the end of next year, thimerosal will probably
not be used in any vaccines. It's my GUESS that children will still
develop autism since mercury is in our environment. The type of mercury in
fish is even more dangerous than the type of mercury in vaccines. I was
told that the type of mercury in dental fillings is more dangerous than
the type of mercury in vaccines. I hope that the next step is to remove
mercury from all dental fillings. It's possible that various other heavy
metals and harmful chemicals
may also cause autism. I hope that the scientists (in the near future) are
able to discover the cause of autism.
Thanks for your post,
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They would say the vaccine stuff is safer, in truth there is NO SAFE dose of
mercury, and they alraedy know vaccines cause most autism.

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/mmr54.html

the evidence is now overwhelming, despite the misinformation from the
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Academy of
Pediatrics and the Institute of Medicine. The (Pretending to) Combat Autism
Act By Bernard Rimland
I am no longer "trying to dig up evidence to prove" vaccines cause autism.
There is already abundant evidence,...... This debate is not scientific but
is political. --- [July 9, 2006 Blog/letter] Discovering the causes,
treatment of autism ----David Ayoub, MD

"In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an
issue as you're ever going to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up
under the guise of protecting the vaccine program. And I'm for the vaccine
program. You keep covering it up and your not going to have a vaccine
program," Geier

"For the past few years much of my lab's work has focused on autism,
including an evaluation of the possible contribution of thimerosal, the
ethylmercury-containing vaccine preservative. .....Let me state
unequivocally that there is strong scientific evidence linking thimerosal to
autism." [Media Letter 3 July, 2006] Unequivocally, There is Strong Evidence
Linking Thimerosal to Autism

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John,
I have read reports and research studies that indicate that mercury is the
cause of autism. I have read other reports and research studies that
indicate that mercury is NOT the cause of autism. In other words,
scientists are not 100 per cent sure related to the cause of autism. Just
because you are certain that mercury is the cause of autism does not mean
that almost every scientist agrees with you. It's my opinion based upon
what I have read that autism is caused by heavy metals. Dangerous
chemicals may also cause autism. I agree that thimerosal should be removed
from all vaccines. I also believe that dental fillings should not contain
mercury. We agree related to most of these issues.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to top
john
medicine forum addict


Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1307061040300001@66-52-22-100.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
Quote:
In article <nuudnZfIWI7w4yvZRVnyvA@bt.com>, "john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote:

"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1207061046560001@66-52-22-53.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...

John,
Thanks for your post. Thanks also for your concern for children. I do
believe (but have NO proof) that there were autistic children during
those
years before we had any vaccines. Let's assume that mercury is the cause
of autism. If that is true, it means that some of those children (that
lived in ancient times) would have developed autism if they were exposed
to mercury. Since there were NO vaccines containing mercury in those
days--the rates of autism would have been lower in those days. The type
of
mercury in fish (methylmercury) is even more dangerous than the type of
mercury in thimerosal.
Jason

"You couldn't even construct a study that shows thimerosal is safe. It's
just too darn toxic. If you inject thimerosal into an animal, its brain will
sicken. If you apply it to living tissue, the cells die. If you put it in a
petri dish, the culture dies. Knowing these things, it would be shocking if
one could inject it into an infant without causing damage." ----Dr. Boyd
Haley, Professor and Chair, Dept. of Chemistry, University of Kentucky and
one of the world's leading authorities on mercury toxicity. (Excerpt from
Deadly Immunity)
Back to top
john
medicine forum addict


Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1307061040300001@66-52-22-100.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...

Quote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John,
I am responding to both of your posts. I agree that mercury and other
heavy metals MAY be the cause of autism. Scientists are still NOT 100 per
cent
sure related to the cause of autism. Thimerosal has already been removed
from most vaccines. Before the end of next year, thimerosal will probably
not be used in any vaccines. It's my GUESS that children will still
develop autism since mercury is in our environment. The type of mercury in
fish is even more dangerous than the type of mercury in vaccines. I was
told that the type of mercury in dental fillings is more dangerous than
the type of mercury in vaccines. I hope that the next step is to remove
mercury from all dental fillings. It's possible that various other heavy
metals and harmful chemicals
may also cause autism. I hope that the scientists (in the near future) are
able to discover the cause of autism.
Thanks for your post,
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They would say the vaccine stuff is safer, in truth there is NO SAFE dose of
mercury, and they alraedy know vaccines cause most autism.

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/mmr54.html

the evidence is now overwhelming, despite the misinformation from the
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Academy of
Pediatrics and the Institute of Medicine. The (Pretending to) Combat Autism
Act By Bernard Rimland
I am no longer "trying to dig up evidence to prove" vaccines cause autism.
There is already abundant evidence,...... This debate is not scientific but
is political. --- [July 9, 2006 Blog/letter] Discovering the causes,
treatment of autism ----David Ayoub, MD

"In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an
issue as you're ever going to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up
under the guise of protecting the vaccine program. And I'm for the vaccine
program. You keep covering it up and your not going to have a vaccine
program," Geier

"For the past few years much of my lab's work has focused on autism,
including an evaluation of the possible contribution of thimerosal, the
ethylmercury-containing vaccine preservative. .....Let me state
unequivocally that there is strong scientific evidence linking thimerosal to
autism." [Media Letter 3 July, 2006] Unequivocally, There is Strong Evidence
Linking Thimerosal to Autism
Back to top
Jason
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1119

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

In article <nuudnZfIWI7w4yvZRVnyvA@bt.com>, "john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote:

"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1207061046560001@66-52-22-53.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
Quote:

John,
Thanks for your post. Thanks also for your concern for children. I do
believe (but have NO proof) that there were autistic children during those
years before we had any vaccines. Let's assume that mercury is the cause
of autism. If that is true, it means that some of those children (that
lived in ancient times) would have developed autism if they were exposed
to mercury. Since there were NO vaccines containing mercury in those
days--the rates of autism would have been lower in those days. The type of
mercury in fish (methylmercury) is even more dangerous than the type of
mercury in thimerosal.
Jason

There were some cases, as mercury has been around for some time, and other
poisons

This is from a researcher, so I am changing the autism is not knew, to

Autism increase due to 'change in' or 'better diagnosis' lie


"Autism" existed long before the 1930s and there is copious evidence.

1) The first school for children with autism was set up in Copenhagen in
1926. The Sofieskool still exists and flourishes. OK - the children were
not given the name of "autistic" but they certainly existed.

2) Records from Great Ormonde Street hospital (from 1850 - 1890) (as
published by Mitzi Waltz) clearly describe children who would fit DSM IV
criteria for Autism.

3) The work of J Langdon Down (of Down Syndrome fame) published around
1878 include superb descriptions of children with autism. the most
interesting feature f these children is that many of them did not show
these symptoms until (as Down observes with great precision) until the
time of second dentition. I assume this is 6-8 years of age? I guess
these children would be diagnosed as having "Childhood Disintegrative
Disorder" nowadays but take a look at the symptoms! I would have thought
that a good case could be made for the involvement of mercury here.

He also describes another set of children with virtually the same
symptoms but who were like it from birth. I cannot see how he can not be
describing autism.

I agree totally, completely and utterly that there has been a staggering
increase in the numbers and these are indicative of potent environmental
factors of which the use of vaccines was an early one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John,
I am responding to both of your posts. I agree that mercury and other
heavy metals MAY be the cause of autism. Scientists are still NOT 100 per
cent
sure related to the cause of autism. Thimerosal has already been removed
from most vaccines. Before the end of next year, thimerosal will probably
not be used in any vaccines. It's my GUESS that children will still
develop autism since mercury is in our environment. The type of mercury in
fish is even more dangerous than the type of mercury in vaccines. I was
told that the type of mercury in dental fillings is more dangerous than
the type of mercury in vaccines. I hope that the next step is to remove
mercury from all dental fillings. It's possible that various other heavy
metals and harmful chemicals
may also cause autism. I hope that the scientists (in the near future) are
able to discover the cause of autism.
Thanks for your post,
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to top
john
medicine forum addict


Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1207061046560001@66-52-22-53.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
Quote:

John,
Thanks for your post. Thanks also for your concern for children. I do
believe (but have NO proof) that there were autistic children during those
years before we had any vaccines. Let's assume that mercury is the cause
of autism. If that is true, it means that some of those children (that
lived in ancient times) would have developed autism if they were exposed
to mercury. Since there were NO vaccines containing mercury in those
days--the rates of autism would have been lower in those days. The type of
mercury in fish (methylmercury) is even more dangerous than the type of
mercury in thimerosal.
Jason

There were some cases, as mercury has been around for some time, and other
poisons

This is from a researcher, so I am changing the autism is not knew, to

Autism increase due to 'change in' or 'better diagnosis' lie


"Autism" existed long before the 1930s and there is copious evidence.

1) The first school for children with autism was set up in Copenhagen in
1926. The Sofieskool still exists and flourishes. OK - the children were
not given the name of "autistic" but they certainly existed.

2) Records from Great Ormonde Street hospital (from 1850 - 1890) (as
published by Mitzi Waltz) clearly describe children who would fit DSM IV
criteria for Autism.

3) The work of J Langdon Down (of Down Syndrome fame) published around
1878 include superb descriptions of children with autism. the most
interesting feature f these children is that many of them did not show
these symptoms until (as Down observes with great precision) until the
time of second dentition. I assume this is 6-8 years of age? I guess
these children would be diagnosed as having "Childhood Disintegrative
Disorder" nowadays but take a look at the symptoms! I would have thought
that a good case could be made for the involvement of mercury here.

He also describes another set of children with virtually the same
symptoms but who were like it from birth. I cannot see how he can not be
describing autism.

I agree totally, completely and utterly that there has been a staggering
increase in the numbers and these are indicative of potent environmental
factors of which the use of vaccines was an early one.
Back to top
john
medicine forum addict


Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1207061046560001@66-52-22-53.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
Quote:
John,
Thanks for your post. Thanks also for your concern for children. I do
believe (but have NO proof) that there were autistic children during those
years before we had any vaccines. Let's assume that mercury is the cause
of autism. If that is true, it means that some of those children (that
lived in ancient times) would have developed autism if they were exposed
to mercury. Since there were NO vaccines containing mercury in those
days--the rates of autism would have been lower in those days. The type of
mercury in fish (methylmercury) is even more dangerous than the type of
mercury in thimerosal.
Jason

I don't think there were actually, nothing to speak of, it is a great lie to
save the vaccine industry. We have 500,000 ASD people in the UK, that is
some figure, so if they can find one then they hope we will ignore the huge
epidemic and its connection to vaccines. It just panders to their
deception.

There are autistic kids who didn't have any vaccines, there is some
connection with mercury amalgam, but the huge numbers we have now, 1 in 166
ASD, 1 in 68 in some areas, the only real suspect is vaccination. We now
have something like 28 vaccines, all poisons.

Most of the kids may have avoided ASD without the vaccine burden. I know
mercury using dentists have kids with deformities but I haven't heard of any
with autism.

And the combination of poisons all given on the same day,
mercury/antibiotic/aluminium/live viruses:

Another important factor with regard to mercury on the mind, which officials
at the CDC, FDA and the professors in the IOM do not consider, is
synergistic toxicity - mercury's enhanced effect when other poisons are
present. A small dose of mercury that kills 1 in 100 rats and a dose of
aluminum that will kill 1 in 100 rats, when combined have a striking effect:
all the rats die. Doses of mercury that have a 1 percent mortality will have
a 100 percent mortality rate if some aluminum is there. Vaccines contain
aluminum. Mercury on the Mind by Donald W. Miller, Jr., MD
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/quotes19.html

"As a clinician, my current belief which guides my practice with these
children is that any child given the HepB vaccination at birth and
subsequent boosters along with DPT has received unacceptable levels of
neurotoxin in the form of the ethyl mercury in the thimerosal preservative
used in the vaccine. In any child with a genetic immune susceptibility
(probably about one in six) this sets off a series of events that injure the
brain-gut-immune system. By the time they are ready to receive the MMR
vaccination, their immune system is so impaired in a great number of these
children that the triple vaccine cannot be handled by the now dysfunctional
immune system and they begin their obvious descent into the autistic
spectrum disorder."---Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D
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Bryan Heit
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

Jeff wrote:
Quote:
So a disease can exist, even if it has not been described.

Very much true. But even if John et al are incapable of understanding
that, we can still point out that autism existed before most vaccines
were widespread.

Bryan
Back to top
cathyb
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 365

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

Jan Drew wrote:
Quote:
"JohnDoe" <none@ofyourbusiness.com> wrote in message
news:44b4a20c$0$2016$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
Jason Johnson wrote:

In article <1152673893.879215.63560@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
"cathyb" <cathybeesley@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

Jeff wrote:
"cathyb" <cathybeesley@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:1152666687.958216.148380@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
(...)

You wouldn't think so. Furthermore, Jason seems to have been saying
that since there is so much mercury from other sources, one wouldn't
expect the rates of autism in the population to decrease on the
removal
of thimerosal from vaccines even if the mercury/autism theory were
fact
instead of unsupported theory.

Which is to say that it is an insignificant factor in mercury
exposure,
at least until major factors have been removed. If thimerosal makes
*no
difference* to autism rates, then the benefits of using the
preservative outweigh the disadvantages (which appear to be none) in
that situation.

Don't get me wrong. The tiny bit of mercury in vaccines has never been
shown
to do any harm at the doses used. In the US and other developed
countries,
it seems like it would be a lot better if all forms of mercury were
removed
from the vaccines. Other preservatives can be used, and there is a
theoretical risk of having mercury in vaccines. Clearly, the benefits
of the
vaccine with thimerasol clearly outweigh the tiny risks of the
vaccines,
but, I think vaccines would be a bit safer if they didn't have mercury
in
them.

So, personally, I would prefer that mercury were removed from all
vaccines.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All other things being equal, why not?
And, of course, it more or less
has been. It seems, however, that the anti-vac crowd just move on to
finding another reason to try and deny kids vaccination. MMR/autism,
MMR/SIDS. The lack of evidence doesn't bother them, but the worry with
all the scaremongering is rates of vaccination. And that's a worry for
the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cathy,
I am not part of the anti-vac crowd. I hope that the anti-vac crowd does
NOT
deny kids vaccinations.

But they do.

If so, they would lose lots of members.

No, they won't. They oppose vaccines which have never and vaccines that no
longer contain any mercury in any form whatsoever. They want vaccines
banned, period. There is a reason why these people are referred to as
insane.

Who is they?

Still having problems with reading and comprehension, Jan?

Quote:

I hope they evolve into the anti-dental fillings crowd. I hope they
succeed in removing mercury from dental fillings.

I don't think they will. They couldn't care less about mercury in any form
from any source.

What a blatant lie!

No, no, Jan.

This is a lie, told by an expert: you.

Jan Drew wrote:

(of the article "Stupid Skeptic Tricks"):

"I posted it with permission from the author."

Everyone knew it was a lie.

And look what the author said:

'As the author of "Stupid Skeptic Tricks," I can state unequivocally
that Jan Drew never requested or received permission to reprint or
repost the article from me. I was doing a bit of ego-surfing, and her
dishonesty pissed me off.'


It's really bugging you, isn't it, knowing that we all know, and have
irrefutable proof, that you are a liar and a thief.



Quote:


They're agenda is to have vaccines banned. The
thimerosal-autism scare is only a means to an end for them, nothing more.
Just look at their resistance against the cervical cancer vaccine - there
it's 'promoting sexual promiscuity'. Or look at the Yurko case - there
vaccines were said to cause shaken baby syndrome.

Once they win that battle, the next battle will be much more difficult
--keeping fish from becoming contaminated with mercury.

At least you seem sincere about removing any possible exposure to mercury
from all sources. And not just mercury, all other heavy metals. Which
makes you an order of magnitude more honest than the anti-vac crowd.

I can only hope so since my agenda is protecting children from mercury
and
other heavy metals. I am in favor of vaccines and would prefer they do
not
contain mercury. Even Jeff seems to believe that it would be a good thing
if mercury was removed from vaccines.

But not (as far as I can tell) because he sees a thimerosal-autism link,
but to err on the side of caution. And maybe to remove an argument from
the arsenal of the anti-vac crowd.

Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to top
\"Jan Drew\"
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 353

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zW5tg.7614$cd3.1426@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Quote:

"JohnDoe" <none@ofyourbusiness.com> wrote in message
news:44b4a20c$0$2016$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
(...)

No, they won't. They oppose vaccines which have never and vaccines that
no longer contain any mercury in any form whatsoever. They want vaccines
banned, period. There is a reason why these people are referred to as
insane.

I don't think they are insane. Misled, certainly. But not insane.

People don't necessarily think logically about some things. Medicine and
vaccines are clearly two areas where people don't think logically.

I hope they evolve into the anti-dental fillings crowd. I hope they
succeed in removing mercury from dental fillings.

I don't think they will. They couldn't care less about mercury in any
form from any source. They're agenda is to have vaccines banned. The
thimerosal-autism scare is only a means to an end for them, nothing more.
Just look at their resistance against the cervical cancer vaccine - there
it's 'promoting sexual promiscuity'. Or look at the Yurko case - there
vaccines were said to cause shaken baby syndrome.

This points to an inability to examine evidence and think.

Jeff

No, it points to a blatant lie.
Quote:

Once they win that battle, the next battle will be much more difficult
--keeping fish from becoming contaminated with mercury.

At least you seem sincere about removing any possible exposure to mercury
from all sources. And not just mercury, all other heavy metals. Which
makes you an order of magnitude more honest than the anti-vac crowd.

I can only hope so since my agenda is protecting children from mercury
and
other heavy metals. I am in favor of vaccines and would prefer they do
not
contain mercury. Even Jeff seems to believe that it would be a good
thing
if mercury was removed from vaccines.

But not (as far as I can tell) because he sees a thimerosal-autism link,
but to err on the side of caution. And maybe to remove an argument from
the arsenal of the anti-vac crowd.

Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back to top
\"Jan Drew\"
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 353

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

"JohnDoe" <none@ofyourbusiness.com> wrote in message
news:44b4a20c$0$2016$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
Quote:
Jason Johnson wrote:

In article <1152673893.879215.63560@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
"cathyb" <cathybeesley@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

Jeff wrote:
"cathyb" <cathybeesley@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:1152666687.958216.148380@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
(...)

You wouldn't think so. Furthermore, Jason seems to have been saying
that since there is so much mercury from other sources, one wouldn't
expect the rates of autism in the population to decrease on the
removal
of thimerosal from vaccines even if the mercury/autism theory were
fact
instead of unsupported theory.

Which is to say that it is an insignificant factor in mercury
exposure,
at least until major factors have been removed. If thimerosal makes
*no
difference* to autism rates, then the benefits of using the
preservative outweigh the disadvantages (which appear to be none) in
that situation.

Don't get me wrong. The tiny bit of mercury in vaccines has never been
shown
to do any harm at the doses used. In the US and other developed
countries,
it seems like it would be a lot better if all forms of mercury were
removed
from the vaccines. Other preservatives can be used, and there is a
theoretical risk of having mercury in vaccines. Clearly, the benefits
of the
vaccine with thimerasol clearly outweigh the tiny risks of the
vaccines,
but, I think vaccines would be a bit safer if they didn't have mercury
in
them.

So, personally, I would prefer that mercury were removed from all
vaccines.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All other things being equal, why not?
And, of course, it more or less
has been. It seems, however, that the anti-vac crowd just move on to
finding another reason to try and deny kids vaccination. MMR/autism,
MMR/SIDS. The lack of evidence doesn't bother them, but the worry with
all the scaremongering is rates of vaccination. And that's a worry for
the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cathy,
I am not part of the anti-vac crowd. I hope that the anti-vac crowd does
NOT
deny kids vaccinations.

But they do.

If so, they would lose lots of members.

No, they won't. They oppose vaccines which have never and vaccines that no
longer contain any mercury in any form whatsoever. They want vaccines
banned, period. There is a reason why these people are referred to as
insane.

Who is they?
Quote:

I hope they evolve into the anti-dental fillings crowd. I hope they
succeed in removing mercury from dental fillings.

I don't think they will. They couldn't care less about mercury in any form
from any source.

What a blatant lie!


They're agenda is to have vaccines banned. The
Quote:
thimerosal-autism scare is only a means to an end for them, nothing more.
Just look at their resistance against the cervical cancer vaccine - there
it's 'promoting sexual promiscuity'. Or look at the Yurko case - there
vaccines were said to cause shaken baby syndrome.

Once they win that battle, the next battle will be much more difficult
--keeping fish from becoming contaminated with mercury.

At least you seem sincere about removing any possible exposure to mercury
from all sources. And not just mercury, all other heavy metals. Which
makes you an order of magnitude more honest than the anti-vac crowd.

I can only hope so since my agenda is protecting children from mercury
and
other heavy metals. I am in favor of vaccines and would prefer they do
not
contain mercury. Even Jeff seems to believe that it would be a good thing
if mercury was removed from vaccines.

But not (as far as I can tell) because he sees a thimerosal-autism link,
but to err on the side of caution. And maybe to remove an argument from
the arsenal of the anti-vac crowd.

Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to top
Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: Autism: It's not ancient, it's new. Reply with quote

cathyb wrote:
Quote:
Mark Probert wrote:
Jeff wrote:
"Mark Probert" <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:QtYsg.508$W%2.191@fe09.lga...
Bryan Heit wrote:
Autism has been defined clinically at least as far back as 1951:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14838158&query_hl=44&itool=pubmed_docsum
Unfortunately, pubmed only goes back that far so we cannot readily look
back farther for older references. Unfortunately, I do not have ready
access to databases which go back farther from my lab. Given that the
word "autism" is used in the title, you can guarantee that it was defined
pre-1951.

Bryan
Leo Kanner first describe Autism as a separate disorder in the early
1940's.

http://www.bestbehaviour.ca/briefhistory.htm

John Down first described Down Syndrome in the mid 1800s. Yet people had it
before he described it. Ditto Parkinson's and Alzheimer's diseases. And
people even had AIDS before it was described. And Thomas Edison and Albert
Einstein are both believed to have ADHD before it became popular.

So a disease can exist, even if it has not been described.

Some people will find that strange.

Speaking of autism, I read an excellent book about it: Curious Incident of
the Dog in the Night-Time, by Mark Haddon. Excellent book.

I usually catch up on reading in the summer and this year my list is
soooooooo long it cannot bear another entry.

That one is worth squeezing onto your list regardless; chuck something
else off. Honest.

It's an excellent story and told from the viewpoint of the autistic
child; I'd love to know how accurate the portrayal is.

I have one major read this summer which I have put off for 2 years. A
HS classmate is the editor, and he is coming to NY this fall and we
plan a few group meetings for those us us who dare to read the book,
and attempt to discus it with him.

If you want details, email me.

Mark
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