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Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs?
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Mortimer Schnerd, RN
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

guarnot wrote:
Quote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:
There are lots of "metro males" in the USA today. A "metro male" is a
male who has become somewhat effeminate and who adopts feminist
political social-political-economic-cultural norms in order to remain
employment in the increasingly feminine and feminist work place. "Metro
male nurses" are notably probably the majority in nursing. They must
adopt the "metro male nurse" facade in order to remain employed as
nurses.

I've heard the term "metrosexual," but I've never heard "metro male."
Of course, this phrase could just be a reflection of CV/"Marcus"'s
deep-seated fear of human sexuality. On the other hand, I did a Google
search and found out that "Metro Male" is a brand of men's hair care
products. Go figure?


CV has some serious personality problems. He comes up with this crap and then
insists we all have to do it to keep our jobs. I manage to keep mine by being
pleasant to my coworkers and patients, and competent in my practice. As far as
the rest of it goes, I don't know what he's babbling about.

I've dated a few nurses over the years and the way you keep out of trouble is
you don't touch at work and you don't show up unexpectedly when you're not at
work. I've never had a problem at work over sexual harassment. I've known a
few that have and all I can say is they broke the rules. I tried to warn them.

If CV can't get along with women it's his own fault. But then I think most of
us already know that.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

mschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE
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guarnot
medicine forum addict


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:28 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

I've heard the term "metrosexual," but I've never heard "metro male."
Of course, this phrase could just be a reflection of CV/"Marcus"'s
deep-seated fear of human sexuality. On the other hand, I did a Google
search and found out that "Metro Male" is a brand of men's hair care
products. Go figure?

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
There are lots of "metro males" in the USA today. A "metro male" is a
male who has become somewhat effeminate and who adopts feminist
political social-political-economic-cultural norms in order to remain
employment in the increasingly feminine and feminist work place. "Metro
male nurses" are notably probably the majority in nursing. They must
adopt the "metro male nurse" facade in order to remain employed as
nurses.
Renee wrote:
"Starlight" <homehealth_rnDELETE@yahoo.com> wrote in message

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:06:06 -0600, "Earle Horton"

I would love to go back to nursing school, and preach the virtues of
critical thinking to the Philistines, but I think that most are just
not
interested.

Haven't been around much, have you. You can't judge all nursing
schools by your narrow experience. You're starting to sound like
Comptom Shaw (or whatever his name is now) and his tortured
existence
as a male nurse.

He's ranting on other newsgroups and nursing boards as "Marcus
Aurelius," on some tear about communism vs. capitalism in the nursing
world.

There's nothing like experience to develop a good nurse, but IMO
that
nurse has to have inate qualities that enable her/him to think
critically and a true willingness to learn all of what she/he is
being
taught, doing suggested independent study also. Students think they
should be spoon fed, when that isn't what true learning is about.
After 30 years of nursing, it seems there are people who are
naturally
good nurses and others who won't be good nurses no matter which
school
they go to or who they work with.

So true. I never heard the term "critical thinking" in my entire
nursing program. Does that mean my entire class graduated and became
crappy nurses? Of course not. We used our natural abilities to build
upon what we learned in school; the degree of success depended on our
talents and our work ethic. It's the job of nursing school to provide
the basics. What you do with them is up to you.

Earle's still got his nose pressed to the glass, I see. Dude, either
suck it up and finish nursing school, or get over it and go back to
drooling over your checks from Micro$loth. Nursing school isn't Greek
tragedy. Really. Some actually get out alive.
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Jan
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 250

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

Talk about "dating yourself".........my newly graduated pay rate was
5.47/hr.
Takehome pay 385.00 per 2 wk period, 365 when union dues were deducted.
Oh yeah and I am a diploma grad. 1978,.......... Oh yeah and I am one of
those foreign born folks.........english pretty good EH!



<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:L0Xng.109230$H71.29064@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Quote:

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mortschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE> wrote in
message news:f3Wng.3377$so3.1587@southeast.rr.com...
Two and a half to three years for an ADN? Not at my school. We had 44
units
to complete prior to the two years of nursing core courses (43 units).
I
graduated on May 30th.


If you're going to screw around that much you might as well have gotten
your BSN. My thinking was to rejoin the work force ASAP. I was't living
on the largess of Mom and Dad any more. I needed to support myself and I
did. 21 months from stat to finish.

Like Hawk63, we were called graduate nurses and paid RN pay from our
first day on the job on May 25th. I took the NCLEX when it was first
offered (in July). We were in the last class to take the NCLEX on paper.
Results didn't come out until October. If I had failed, my pay and
position would have been degraded to CNA-II. As it was, I passed but no
pay raise either.

My first paycheck as a floor nurse was at $13.35 an hour.

dating myself here...but...my first job(the monday after I grad on
friday)...was $2.25 an hour...yep....$90 a week folks!!! however...I
also shared a pretty big 2 bedroom apt with three friends..and montly
rent..with utilities was $100...

ahhhhhh.....the 60's



The amazing part to
me was now they were giving me money to do what I'd been doing all along,
only now I didn't have to study before I showed up.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

mschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE



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Kurt Ullman
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

In article <_1eqg.2347$ye3.1262@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Norminn <norminn@earthlink.net> wrote:

Quote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:
There are lots of "metro males" in the USA today. A "metro male" is a
male who has become somewhat effeminate and who adopts feminist
political social-political-economic-cultural norms in order to remain
employment in the increasingly feminine and feminist work place. "Metro
male nurses" are notably probably the majority in nursing. They must
adopt the "metro male nurse" facade in order to remain employed as
nurses.

Marcus, I believe you have outdone yourself. Not easy to do.

You gotta admit watching a real pro at work (even if it is only being
a pro a*****le) is inspiring. (grin)
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Truckdude
medicine forum addict


Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Marcus Aurelius" <alexander26a@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151942083.401792.161820@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
There are lots of "metro males" in the USA today. A "metro male" is a
male who has become somewhat effeminate and who adopts feminist
political social-political-economic-cultural norms in order to remain
employment in the increasingly feminine and feminist work place. "Metro
male nurses" are notably probably the majority in nursing. They must
adopt the "metro male nurse" facade in order to remain employed as
nurses.

"notably probably"? If you have to change your personality to get along at
work, then there is something else going on that you don't want to admit to.
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Norminn
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
There are lots of "metro males" in the USA today. A "metro male" is a
male who has become somewhat effeminate and who adopts feminist
political social-political-economic-cultural norms in order to remain
employment in the increasingly feminine and feminist work place. "Metro
male nurses" are notably probably the majority in nursing. They must
adopt the "metro male nurse" facade in order to remain employed as
nurses.

Marcus, I believe you have outdone yourself. Not easy to do.
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Starlight
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

On 3 Jul 2006 08:54:43 -0700, "Marcus Aurelius"
<alexander26a@hotmail.com> posted:

Quote:
There are lots of "metro males" in the USA today. A "metro male" is a
male who has become somewhat effeminate and who adopts feminist
political social-political-economic-cultural norms in order to remain
employment in the increasingly feminine and feminist work place. "Metro
male nurses" are notably probably the majority in nursing. They must
adopt the "metro male nurse" facade in order to remain employed as
nurses.

Does it threaten you that males have become more aware of issues that
affect women? The role of the woman used to be to keep up a house
and bear and raise children. That's no longer the case. It's a
wise man who realizes that times have changed, and that he'll be more
successful if he treats women as equals rather than trying to keep
them under his thumb. That doesn't make a man effeminate in the
least. It makes him more aware and well-rounded.
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Marcus Aurelius
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

There are lots of "metro males" in the USA today. A "metro male" is a
male who has become somewhat effeminate and who adopts feminist
political social-political-economic-cultural norms in order to remain
employment in the increasingly feminine and feminist work place. "Metro
male nurses" are notably probably the majority in nursing. They must
adopt the "metro male nurse" facade in order to remain employed as
nurses.
Renee wrote:
Quote:
"Starlight" <homehealth_rnDELETE@yahoo.com> wrote in message

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:06:06 -0600, "Earle Horton"

I would love to go back to nursing school, and preach the virtues of
critical thinking to the Philistines, but I think that most are just
not
interested.

Haven't been around much, have you. You can't judge all nursing
schools by your narrow experience. You're starting to sound like
Comptom Shaw (or whatever his name is now) and his tortured
existence
as a male nurse.

He's ranting on other newsgroups and nursing boards as "Marcus
Aurelius," on some tear about communism vs. capitalism in the nursing
world.

There's nothing like experience to develop a good nurse, but IMO
that
nurse has to have inate qualities that enable her/him to think
critically and a true willingness to learn all of what she/he is
being
taught, doing suggested independent study also. Students think they
should be spoon fed, when that isn't what true learning is about.
After 30 years of nursing, it seems there are people who are
naturally
good nurses and others who won't be good nurses no matter which
school
they go to or who they work with.

So true. I never heard the term "critical thinking" in my entire
nursing program. Does that mean my entire class graduated and became
crappy nurses? Of course not. We used our natural abilities to build
upon what we learned in school; the degree of success depended on our
talents and our work ethic. It's the job of nursing school to provide
the basics. What you do with them is up to you.

Earle's still got his nose pressed to the glass, I see. Dude, either
suck it up and finish nursing school, or get over it and go back to
drooling over your checks from Micro$loth. Nursing school isn't Greek
tragedy. Really. Some actually get out alive.
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Candide
medicine forum addict


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Norminn" <norminn@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:14Opg.1444$cd3.629@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Quote:
There can almost always be arguments made - for or against - on the
basis of numbers. Just cook your figures according to your favorite
recipe Surprised) Let's see: 50 patients, 2 RN clinical instructors, 10
student nurses. Hospitals are building fast enough that they can take
an old hospital unit and turn it into dormitory/apartment space.
Support services are already there. Only thing I can't figure out is
whether to starch the uniforms Surprised)

Who still wears a proper uniform? *LOL* Not counting coloured scrub tops
paried with white slacks and clogs. *LOLx2* Don't even think students
wear em anymore, well not the BSN ones I've seen at least. Still has to
be better than looking like something out of a Cherry Ames novel.

Candide

Quote:

Is this something a lot of nurses are advocating (or talking about)?
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Norminn
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

There can almost always be arguments made - for or against - on the
basis of numbers. Just cook your figures according to your favorite
recipe Surprised) Let's see: 50 patients, 2 RN clinical instructors, 10
student nurses. Hospitals are building fast enough that they can take
an old hospital unit and turn it into dormitory/apartment space.
Support services are already there. Only thing I can't figure out is
whether to starch the uniforms Surprised)

Is this something a lot of nurses are advocating (or talking about)?
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Truckdude
medicine forum addict


Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:41 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Renee" <catcatcat@catcatcatcat.cat> wrote in message
news:_RTog.7798$6w.4709@fed1read11...
Quote:
"Starlight" <homehealth_rnDELETE@yahoo.com> wrote in message

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:06:06 -0600, "Earle Horton"

I would love to go back to nursing school, and preach the virtues of
critical thinking to the Philistines, but I think that most are just not
interested.

Haven't been around much, have you. You can't judge all nursing
schools by your narrow experience. You're starting to sound like
Comptom Shaw (or whatever his name is now) and his tortured existence
as a male nurse.

He's ranting on other newsgroups and nursing boards as "Marcus Aurelius,"
on some tear about communism vs. capitalism in the nursing world.

There's nothing like experience to develop a good nurse, but IMO that
nurse has to have inate qualities that enable her/him to think
critically and a true willingness to learn all of what she/he is being
taught, doing suggested independent study also. Students think they
should be spoon fed, when that isn't what true learning is about.
After 30 years of nursing, it seems there are people who are naturally
good nurses and others who won't be good nurses no matter which school
they go to or who they work with.

So true. I never heard the term "critical thinking" in my entire nursing
program. Does that mean my entire class graduated and became crappy
nurses? Of course not. We used our natural abilities to build upon what
we learned in school; the degree of success depended on our talents and
our work ethic. It's the job of nursing school to provide the basics.
What you do with them is up to you.

Earle's still got his nose pressed to the glass, I see. Dude, either suck
it up and finish nursing school, or get over it and go back to drooling
over your checks from Micro$loth. Nursing school isn't Greek tragedy.
Really. Some actually get out alive.


"Nose pressed to the glass"....great assessment of this Earle guy.
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Renee
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Starlight" <homehealth_rnDELETE@yahoo.com> wrote in message

Quote:
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:06:06 -0600, "Earle Horton"

I would love to go back to nursing school, and preach the virtues of
critical thinking to the Philistines, but I think that most are just
not
interested.

Haven't been around much, have you. You can't judge all nursing
schools by your narrow experience. You're starting to sound like
Comptom Shaw (or whatever his name is now) and his tortured
existence
as a male nurse.

He's ranting on other newsgroups and nursing boards as "Marcus
Aurelius," on some tear about communism vs. capitalism in the nursing
world.

Quote:
There's nothing like experience to develop a good nurse, but IMO
that
nurse has to have inate qualities that enable her/him to think
critically and a true willingness to learn all of what she/he is
being
taught, doing suggested independent study also. Students think they
should be spoon fed, when that isn't what true learning is about.
After 30 years of nursing, it seems there are people who are
naturally
good nurses and others who won't be good nurses no matter which
school
they go to or who they work with.

So true. I never heard the term "critical thinking" in my entire
nursing program. Does that mean my entire class graduated and became
crappy nurses? Of course not. We used our natural abilities to build
upon what we learned in school; the degree of success depended on our
talents and our work ethic. It's the job of nursing school to provide
the basics. What you do with them is up to you.

Earle's still got his nose pressed to the glass, I see. Dude, either
suck it up and finish nursing school, or get over it and go back to
drooling over your checks from Micro$loth. Nursing school isn't Greek
tragedy. Really. Some actually get out alive.
Back to top
ruthlee1951@msn.com
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

Candide wrote:
Quote:
Was chatting with a friend yesterday who works in one of the larger
hospitals in our area about the usual suspects, and talk quickly came
around to nursing students/school programs. My friend was "assigned" a
student last week who was supposed to do nothing for the duration but
"observe", which one gathers is pretty much common practice these days
as the emphasis in nursing education has titled towards academics vs.
practical.

The upshot from what one is hearing and sees is now not only is it the
BSN grads arriving on the floors with tons of theory but little direct
patient care skills, but many Associate grads as well. IMHO the
decreased emphasis on clinical in favour of academics contributes to the
seemingly high amount of new grads who arrive on the floors and when
being acquainted with their duties, bolt for the door ranting " I didn't
go to nursing school for this". There seems to be some sort of idea
floating around that aides and techs are there to do all the grunt
work/direct patient care, while RNs give orders. Granted this is the way
the profession is moving (more because of the shortage of bedside RNs,
than anything else), but this does not seem right.

Nursing skills are honed by time, if one never uses them or holds them
in low value then they never will become "second nature" enough for an
RN to feel competent in all situations. My asking about bringing diploma
programs back is because to date most produced some of the best nurses
around. Thoughts?

Candide

I started in a diploma program. The first semester we spent 4 hours a
day in the hospital doing all the things nurse aides do now and then 4
hours in class. Sometimes the clinical hours were on the day shift,
other times evenings or nights. As we added knowledge and clinical
skills in the classroom, our role in the hospital expanded to include
the new clinical skills, so that by the time you graduated at the end
of 3 years you could walk into the hospital and function quite well.
When I transferred to University it was a walk in the park. And when I
started work I felt quite comfortable being the RN. None of our
clinical hours in the diploma school were spent just watching someone
work. We had assignments of multiple patients from the beginning.
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Martyn H
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

Earle Horton wrote:
Quote:
"Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:ZNmog.3851$H32.947@trndny06...




"Earle Horton" <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote in message
news:44a1d434$0$9896$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
"Martyn H" <martyn_hodson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151447109.109091.160030@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Earle Horton wrote:
Isn't the main argument against hospital-based programs expense?
I mean, I can argue all day long that I should be driving a new
Mercedes, simply because it is a "better car" than my ten year
old Honda Civic, but that doesn't mean that I could afford the
payments. Similarly, society cannot afford to give all nurses
say 2,000 hours of clinical experience, before they are even
licensed.

why not ?

All EU states have a minimum practice placement requirement of
2300 hours in their pre-reg programmes

FYI it is something like 750 here. (Too lazy to look up the exact
number, but you get the picture. It also depends on the state.)
A friend desires to emigrate to one of those countries, and they
will accept her U.S. BSN, plus a year of work experience. She
has to take an English test too. Oh, the irony!

Perhaps I should have said, "Our society does not believe, that it
can afford to require as many clinical hours, as some others
quite successfully do." Now if I took sick, would I rather be
in one of those possibly more enlightened countries? I am
thinking about it.

Earle

"Society" has little to do with, if anything with setting nursing
education curriculum and or standards. One would be hard pressed these
days to find more than two persons that can accurately describe what a
RN does, or even looks like without whites and a cap.


"Society", i.e. you and me, decides what we will tolerate as far as medical
bills, hospital bills, and insurance premiums. That is the driving force
behind actions taken by professional bodies, and the state legislatures that
control them. Or don't you believe in money? These EU states that Martyn
is talking about tend to have a more paternalistic attitude toward
regulation and funding it, or they will have as long as their citizens
continue to tolerate confiscatory taxation.

Uk income tax rates -

0% on the first 5000 or so GBP
10% on about 2000 gbp after that
23% on earnings after that up to about 33k GBP
40 % above that

plus National Insurance on earnings aobve 84 gbp / week up to a upper
limit of 645 gbp/ wk - the exact rate depending on employers pension
arrangements etc

employers pension arrangement can havea beneficial effect on income tax
as well

hardly 'confiscatory taxation'

admittedly other EU states have higher tax rates, but have higher
social security benefits and wider 'free at the point of use '
provision in a variety of services inclusing education, ( and student
support for further and higher education) , chidlcare, health public
transport ...

Quote:

It is the professional nursing bodies (NLN, etc) that decide much,
especially the NLN which accredits schools/nursing programs. Now that
most diploma programs are gone, attention has been turned to the
Associate programs, and what has slowly happened in most cases is that
those programs are beginning to resemble BSN nursing programs with their
emphasis on math, science,theory and "critical thinking".

Don't knock critical thinking. The problem I have seen with it, is that
nurses and nursing instructors would like to have it, but don't have the
faintest idea how to get it. Bachelor's programs, in general, not just BSN
programs, some of them do a good job in teaching one how to think. A course
in Ethics, for example, is going to make anyone a better nurse, if (s)he is
capable of learning the information. There are nurses, I know some of them,
who do not know or believe that patients have the right to make decisions
affecting their own care.

exactly

Quote:

At the physical level, there are connections between observable phenomena,
which are described using what is called "logic", taught in another
philosophy course. The EU states have this and increased clinical hours
too! At the very least, you will need critical thinking and the ability to
write about it, to recognize and write up bad doctors and nurses.

agree totally - philosophy and ethics and organisational behaviour are
important parts of Uk pre-reg curriculams and we managed to get the
2300 hours clinical practice...
Quote:

There are simply not enough time for all the new requirements plus
extended clinical, hence more classroom time with dummies and
"observation". BSN programs were long criticized for being long on
theory and short on practice, now ADN programs are quickly following
suit.

I am thinking that maybe you need more clinical time in programs, but isn't
that what you get in the first year as a paid registered nurse? By all
means add a thousand unpaid clinical hours, but don't take away math and
science to get them.

40 - 45 wk academic years rather than the traditional 30 wk academic
year and a system of (part) funding student living expenses ( by top
slicing income to the healt h services - in the USA this could be
achieved not only through taxation but also through a levy placed on
health insurance premiums etc )
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Kurt Ullman
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

In article <mu25a2t4no5l3c15h9hcti3e8fp2b7lopc@4ax.com>,
Starlight <homehealth_rnDELETE@yahoo.com> wrote:


Quote:

There's nothing like experience to develop a good nurse, but IMO that
nurse has to have inate qualities that enable her/him to think
critically and a true willingness to learn all of what she/he is being
taught, doing suggested independent study also. Students think they
should be spoon fed, when that isn't what true learning is about.
After 30 years of nursing, it seems there are people who are naturally
good nurses and others who won't be good nurses no matter which school
they go to or who they work with.

Of course there is also the third (or maybe fourth) that would
become good nurses IF they got the proper attention, help, guidance,
whatever in school and (this is the fourth) who survive nursing school
but only become good nurses when they come out and get under the spell
of a mentor. Those of us who work on units that get the kids have a
responsibility (to ourselves and our profession) to stay on the look out
for the last two groups and do what we can for them.
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