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Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs?
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<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 222

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

<editor@netpath.net> wrote in message
news:1151353580.120619.222090@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Mortimer Schnerd, RN quoted someone else:
Two and a half to three years for an ADN? Not at my school. We had 44
units
to complete prior to the two years of nursing core courses (43 units).
I
graduated on May 30th.

and replied:
If you're going to screw around that much you might as well have gotten
your
BSN.


I agree....

however...doesn't it take actually 5 years to get a BSN if you start right
out of high school?? things may have changed...but in "my" prehistoric
days...college students didn't declare a major til after 2
years...thusly..it actually took 5 years to get in all the nursing BS
(oops..meant the BAD BS)

of course this was well before nursing decided to shoot itself in the foot
be "allowing" bachelor's graduates to upgrade into a nursing major
../...."bridge" programs think they were called..
My thinking was to rejoin the work force ASAP. I was't living on the
Quote:
largess of Mom and Dad any more. I needed to support myself and I did.
21
months from stat to finish.

At least here in North Carolina, you aren't going to finish any ADN
program - from start to finish - in anywhere near 21 months. The
nursing programs themselves at community colleges here run five or six
semesters - not counting a couple semesters of prerequisites you have
to take in advance, within five years.
And that's aside from community college ADN programs in this state
running waiting lists in at least some major locales.

No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
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Norminn
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

clipped
Quote:
Now, I didn't go through a diploma program but I'm told this is the deal: they
get the same two years worth of classes and clinical as ADN students. Then they

I am diploma grad, and didn't come close to getting the stuff that ADN
grads get. We didn't hit the floor running after graduation - that was
done after the first year of school. Life was a bit different then -
CPR invented the next year Surprised) We weren't allowed to start IV's or
place NG tubes. Watched a thousand or two, so when the time came after
graduation, nothing to it but to do it.

I didn't get enough book learning to diagnose and prescribe, but I can
assess the heck out of any patient, and not many died on my watch. I
didn't tremble at the thought of calling a doc in the middle of the
night, because the thought of a patient going bad and not having done it
was what made me really tremble.

Quote:
get that third year where they get to serve as unpaid nurses for the hospital.
Think of it as the same as the first year on the job for an ADN nurse. At the
end of the third year they take the NCLEX. It's no wonder they hit the floor
running. They've already got a year on the job (where the real training takes
place). The hospital loves them because they save $40,000 with each one they
have working for free.

My "tuition" for three years (not for EACH year) was $300. When I had
my first child, four years after graduation, I was earning $2.19/hr. and
the hospital bill was a bit more than $300 for three days. No
insurance, but the hospital owner let me make monthly payments; also
gave pay advances when things were tight Surprised)
Quote:

Mr. A. Lincoln worked out an arrangement some years ago dealing with working for
free so I don't have to do it. Probably most other nursing students don't want
to do it either. Which is why the ADN programs are so popular.



There were many times we likened our schooling to slavery, but I got

something that would cost - $200,000? - today. Free meals, uniforms,
and surrogate mother Surprised) Weekends were definitely not for beer blasts
or sport f------. Nobody snitched on anyone who made an error - we
reported our own.

Back to the topic at hand - there was a newspaper article in Florida
just a week or so ago about how many applicants are being turned away
from "non profit" U. because they can't afford PhD. nursing faculties.
Makes one wonder what faculties they do posess Surprised) Our educational
system is soooooooo f----- up that I doubt it will recover. Mebbe we
can get an Indian or Singaporean group to run it for us. Or elect
George Bush for President. If it does, indeed, cost $200,000 to get a
four-year nursing degree, and we are, indeed, spending $8 billion bucks
a month in Iraq, we are spending, every month, what it would cost to
educate 40,000 nurses. That can't be right - it would be f------ crazy,
and we aren't crazy, are we?
Back to top
Candide
medicine forum addict


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:NvXng.109239$H71.81309@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Quote:

editor@netpath.net> wrote in message
news:1151353580.120619.222090@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Mortimer Schnerd, RN quoted someone else:
Two and a half to three years for an ADN? Not at my school. We
had 44
units
to complete prior to the two years of nursing core courses (43
units).
I
graduated on May 30th.

and replied:
If you're going to screw around that much you might as well have
gotten
your
BSN.


I agree....

however...doesn't it take actually 5 years to get a BSN if you start
right
out of high school?? things may have changed...but in "my" prehistoric
days...college students didn't declare a major til after 2
years...thusly..it actually took 5 years to get in all the nursing BS
(oops..meant the BAD BS)

Using Hunter College as a model, one spends 2 years taking pre-nursing
classes, then during the final semester of pre-nursing classes, apply to
be formally accepted into the BSN nursing program which is two years
long. This is the "right out of high school" model, for students who
just graduated from high school as well as those without previous
college credits. Pre-nursing can become longer if one did not take the
required math,English and perhaps science courses in high school to or
pass the "placement" exams required by most college/universities. For
instance one could not take the required statistics course at our
college unless one had completed a certain level of algebra in high
school, or passed the college's math placement exam with a certain
enough grade. Those lacking would have to take and pass the "no credit"
math/English classes before being allowed to take the required courses.
All this sets one back at least one semester, sometimes two.

Next problem is that in many colleges pre-nursing classes are shared by
other health disciplines as well. So you have potential student nurses,
dieticians and others all competing for the same slots. If you cannot
register for the proper classes, again one is put back a semester. Some
girls went to other schools to take the courses and applied to have the
credits transferred.

It has been my experience then and from what am hearing now the
increased emphasis on math and science, especially organic chemistry is
causing many pre-nursing students grief. Some colleges have organic
chem. just for nursing students (organic chem. lite), other schools
students must sit in the same class as pre-med, and other students. I'd
rather sit through two semesters of med dose calc, than one of organic
chemistry. *LOL*

The problem is that students know by several weeks into a semester if
they are going to pass with the right grade for entry into the nursing
program. Those that aren't on track to pass, often drop out to avoid a
"F", which might keep them out of the program. This again sets one back
a semester.

Finally as others have posted, it has almost become impossible to gain
entry into some programs these days. Students with 4.0s and above are
twisting in the wind waiting for entry, this means one will graduate
that much later.

Quote:
of course this was well before nursing decided to shoot itself in the
foot
be "allowing" bachelor's graduates to upgrade into a nursing major
./...."bridge" programs think they were called..


The rationale there, IIRC was to ease the nursing shortage while
allowing a more diverse student body to become nurses. Personally do not
see what is wrong with "second degree" BSN programs, as most simply are
allowing students with a BS or BA to skip the palaver of "pre-nursing"
and become accepted right into the nursing program. These students take
the same courses side by side as other BSN students, and in some cases
more if they have to complete any missing science/math pre-nursing
courses.

Candide
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Candide
medicine forum addict


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Norminn" <norminn@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bLXng.12867$o4.2043@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Quote:
clipped
Now, I didn't go through a diploma program but I'm told this is the
deal: they
get the same two years worth of classes and clinical as ADN
students. Then they

I am diploma grad, and didn't come close to getting the stuff that ADN
grads get. We didn't hit the floor running after graduation - that
was
done after the first year of school. Life was a bit different then -
CPR invented the next year Surprised) We weren't allowed to start IV's or
place NG tubes. Watched a thousand or two, so when the time came
after
graduation, nothing to it but to do it.

I didn't get enough book learning to diagnose and prescribe, but I can
assess the heck out of any patient, and not many died on my watch. I
didn't tremble at the thought of calling a doc in the middle of the
night, because the thought of a patient going bad and not having done
it
was what made me really tremble.

get that third year where they get to serve as unpaid nurses for the
hospital.
Think of it as the same as the first year on the job for an ADN
nurse. At the
end of the third year they take the NCLEX. It's no wonder they hit
the floor
running. They've already got a year on the job (where the real
training takes
place). The hospital loves them because they save $40,000 with each
one they
have working for free.

My "tuition" for three years (not for EACH year) was $300. When I had
my first child, four years after graduation, I was earning $2.19/hr.
and
the hospital bill was a bit more than $300 for three days. No
insurance, but the hospital owner let me make monthly payments; also
gave pay advances when things were tight Surprised)

Mr. A. Lincoln worked out an arrangement some years ago dealing with
working for
free so I don't have to do it. Probably most other nursing students
don't want
to do it either. Which is why the ADN programs are so popular.



There were many times we likened our schooling to slavery, but I got
something that would cost - $200,000? - today. Free meals, uniforms,
and surrogate mother Surprised)

Sounds like the Nursing Core! *LOL*

There's an idea worth bringing back.


Weekends were definitely not for beer blasts
Quote:
or sport f------. Nobody snitched on anyone who made an error - we
reported our own.


Do not think today's girls/guys can understand just how "convent" like
many nursing schools were. Many house mothers took the "purity" think a
bit to heavy and sat on their girl's chests like you wouldn't believe.
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Norminn
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

clipped
Quote:

Do not think today's girls/guys can understand just how "convent" like
many nursing schools were. Many house mothers took the "purity" think a
bit to heavy and sat on their girl's chests like you wouldn't believe.


One housemother, who was at least 75, caught me as I looked back whilst

sneaking out of the dorm on a date Surprised) She also scolded me for walking
barefoot in the hall in the dorm. Other than that, I had no clue what
it was she was protecting me from Surprised) Rumor was that some students were
scolded for not wearing undies under their night gowns and coats when
they ran out for quick snacks just before curfew. But then, it would
never have occurred to me to go anywhere without my undies on Surprised)
Back to top
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

editor@netpath.net wrote:
Quote:
At least here in North Carolina, you aren't going to finish any ADN
program - from start to finish - in anywhere near 21 months. The
nursing programs themselves at community colleges here run five or six
semesters - not counting a couple semesters of prerequisites you have
to take in advance, within five years.


Uh... the CMHA School of Nursing, Charlotte, NC. ADN, Class of 92. The school
has changed names but it's still under the auspices of the same hospital
authority.

BTW, the education was free. I paid for my own books and living expenses, but
tuition was forgiven by me working for them after graduation on a month for
month basis. 18 months of work for 18 months of tuition.

Of course, that was 1992. No doubt things have changed quite a bit.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

mschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE
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<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 222

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:50 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

top posted

OMG....a soul older than me....remember my first RN job paid $2.25 an hour

but I wholeheartedly agree with everything else you said...

diploma nurses rule!!!


"Norminn" <norminn@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bLXng.12867$o4.2043@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Quote:
clipped
Now, I didn't go through a diploma program but I'm told this is the deal:
they get the same two years worth of classes and clinical as ADN
students. Then they

I am diploma grad, and didn't come close to getting the stuff that ADN
grads get. We didn't hit the floor running after graduation - that was
done after the first year of school. Life was a bit different then - CPR
invented the next year Surprised) We weren't allowed to start IV's or place NG
tubes. Watched a thousand or two, so when the time came after graduation,
nothing to it but to do it.

I didn't get enough book learning to diagnose and prescribe, but I can
assess the heck out of any patient, and not many died on my watch. I
didn't tremble at the thought of calling a doc in the middle of the night,
because the thought of a patient going bad and not having done it was what
made me really tremble.

get that third year where they get to serve as unpaid nurses for the
hospital. Think of it as the same as the first year on the job for an ADN
nurse. At the end of the third year they take the NCLEX. It's no wonder
they hit the floor running. They've already got a year on the job (where
the real training takes place). The hospital loves them because they
save $40,000 with each one they have working for free.

My "tuition" for three years (not for EACH year) was $300. When I had my
first child, four years after graduation, I was earning $2.19/hr. and the
hospital bill was a bit more than $300 for three days. No insurance, but
the hospital owner let me make monthly payments; also gave pay advances
when things were tight Surprised)

Mr. A. Lincoln worked out an arrangement some years ago dealing with
working for free so I don't have to do it. Probably most other nursing
students don't want to do it either. Which is why the ADN programs are
so popular.



There were many times we likened our schooling to slavery, but I got
something that would cost - $200,000? - today. Free meals, uniforms, and
surrogate mother Surprised) Weekends were definitely not for beer blasts or
sport f------. Nobody snitched on anyone who made an error - we reported
our own.

Back to the topic at hand - there was a newspaper article in Florida just
a week or so ago about how many applicants are being turned away from "non
profit" U. because they can't afford PhD. nursing faculties. Makes one
wonder what faculties they do posess Surprised) Our educational system is
soooooooo f----- up that I doubt it will recover. Mebbe we can get an
Indian or Singaporean group to run it for us. Or elect George Bush for
President. If it does, indeed, cost $200,000 to get a four-year nursing
degree, and we are, indeed, spending $8 billion bucks a month in Iraq, we
are spending, every month, what it would cost to educate 40,000 nurses.
That can't be right - it would be f------ crazy, and we aren't crazy, are
we?
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<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 222

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:c2Yng.817$%67.311@trndny02...
Quote:





"Norminn" <norminn@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bLXng.12867$o4.2043@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
clipped
Now, I didn't go through a diploma program but I'm told this is the
deal: they
get the same two years worth of classes and clinical as ADN
students. Then they

I am diploma grad, and didn't come close to getting the stuff that ADN
grads get. We didn't hit the floor running after graduation - that
was
done after the first year of school. Life was a bit different then -
CPR invented the next year Surprised) We weren't allowed to start IV's or
place NG tubes. Watched a thousand or two, so when the time came
after
graduation, nothing to it but to do it.

I didn't get enough book learning to diagnose and prescribe, but I can
assess the heck out of any patient, and not many died on my watch. I
didn't tremble at the thought of calling a doc in the middle of the
night, because the thought of a patient going bad and not having done
it
was what made me really tremble.

get that third year where they get to serve as unpaid nurses for the
hospital.
Think of it as the same as the first year on the job for an ADN
nurse. At the
end of the third year they take the NCLEX. It's no wonder they hit
the floor
running. They've already got a year on the job (where the real
training takes
place). The hospital loves them because they save $40,000 with each
one they
have working for free.

My "tuition" for three years (not for EACH year) was $300. When I had
my first child, four years after graduation, I was earning $2.19/hr.
and
the hospital bill was a bit more than $300 for three days. No
insurance, but the hospital owner let me make monthly payments; also
gave pay advances when things were tight Surprised)

Mr. A. Lincoln worked out an arrangement some years ago dealing with
working for
free so I don't have to do it. Probably most other nursing students
don't want
to do it either. Which is why the ADN programs are so popular.



There were many times we likened our schooling to slavery, but I got
something that would cost - $200,000? - today. Free meals, uniforms,
and surrogate mother Surprised)

Sounds like the Nursing Core! *LOL*

There's an idea worth bringing back.


Weekends were definitely not for beer blasts
or sport f------. Nobody snitched on anyone who made an error - we
reported our own.


Do not think today's girls/guys can understand just how "convent" like
many nursing schools were. Many house mothers took the "purity" think a
bit to heavy and sat on their girl's chests like you wouldn't believe.

funny you should say that.....recently I was chatting with a niece...almost
21..starting her 4th year at a U...really sweet gal

was telling her about housemothers..and having to sign in and
out...midnights on fri and sat...study hours from 7-9...no males above the
first floor...etc etc...

she looked and me and said "but you were adults!!"

yeppers...good ole 60s ...she also cannot conceive of college dorms that
aren't coed..your male friend can spend the night..you can drink booze in
your room...yada yada yada

personally I would NOT want to be 21 now...

fascinating thread...
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<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 222

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:tYXng.10972$6d1.6082@trndny09...
Quote:






Hawki63@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:NvXng.109239$H71.81309@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...

editor@netpath.net> wrote in message
news:1151353580.120619.222090@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Mortimer Schnerd, RN quoted someone else:
Two and a half to three years for an ADN? Not at my school. We
had 44
units
to complete prior to the two years of nursing core courses (43
units).
I
graduated on May 30th.

and replied:
If you're going to screw around that much you might as well have
gotten
your
BSN.


I agree....

however...doesn't it take actually 5 years to get a BSN if you start
right
out of high school?? things may have changed...but in "my" prehistoric
days...college students didn't declare a major til after 2
years...thusly..it actually took 5 years to get in all the nursing BS
(oops..meant the BAD BS)

Using Hunter College as a model,

ahhh...a fellow New Yorker!!!

I was thinking of the program...I think that linked Columbia Pres and maybe
NYU....that was a total of 5 years

yikes...Hunter College was my choice if I chose teaching instead of nursing

of course I chose the latter cuz I was one of 8..and so diploma school was
on the cheap



one spends 2 years taking pre-nursing
Quote:
classes, then during the final semester of pre-nursing classes, apply to
be formally accepted into the BSN nursing program which is two years
long. This is the "right out of high school" model, for students who
just graduated from high school as well as those without previous
college credits. Pre-nursing can become longer if one did not take the
required math,English and perhaps science courses in high school to or
pass the "placement" exams required by most college/universities. For
instance one could not take the required statistics course at our
college unless one had completed a certain level of algebra in high
school, or passed the college's math placement exam with a certain
enough grade. Those lacking would have to take and pass the "no credit"
math/English classes before being allowed to take the required courses.
All this sets one back at least one semester, sometimes two.

Next problem is that in many colleges pre-nursing classes are shared by
other health disciplines as well. So you have potential student nurses,
dieticians and others all competing for the same slots. If you cannot
register for the proper classes, again one is put back a semester. Some
girls went to other schools to take the courses and applied to have the
credits transferred.

It has been my experience then and from what am hearing now the
increased emphasis on math and science, especially organic chemistry is
causing many pre-nursing students grief. Some colleges have organic
chem. just for nursing students (organic chem. lite), other schools
students must sit in the same class as pre-med, and other students. I'd
rather sit through two semesters of med dose calc, than one of organic
chemistry. *LOL*

The problem is that students know by several weeks into a semester if
they are going to pass with the right grade for entry into the nursing
program. Those that aren't on track to pass, often drop out to avoid a
"F", which might keep them out of the program. This again sets one back
a semester.

Finally as others have posted, it has almost become impossible to gain
entry into some programs these days. Students with 4.0s and above are
twisting in the wind waiting for entry, this means one will graduate
that much later.

of course this was well before nursing decided to shoot itself in the
foot
be "allowing" bachelor's graduates to upgrade into a nursing major
./...."bridge" programs think they were called..


perhaps...and I am sure many many do well....as an NP tho...it sorta churns
me to work alongside "bridge" grads that got a master's in nsg in about 2
years.....ie...had never done bedside nsg or anything basic....

a huge advantage of NPs over PAS(tho I feel PAS get a much better "training"
than NPs do)...is that PAs lack the "nursing" part....ie..they surely know
thier stuff...but often have NO clue as to how to relate to patients..

my h.o.


Quote:


The rationale there, IIRC was to ease the nursing shortage while
allowing a more diverse student body to become nurses. Personally do not
see what is wrong with "second degree" BSN programs, as most simply are
allowing students with a BS or BA to skip the palaver of "pre-nursing"
and become accepted right into the nursing program. These students take
the same courses side by side as other BSN students, and in some cases
more if they have to complete any missing science/math pre-nursing
courses.

Candide

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Starlight
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:17:23 GMT, Norminn <norminn@earthlink.net>
posted:


Quote:
One housemother, who was at least 75, caught me as I looked back whilst
sneaking out of the dorm on a date Surprised) She also scolded me for walking
barefoot in the hall in the dorm. Other than that, I had no clue what
it was she was protecting me from Surprised) Rumor was that some students were
scolded for not wearing undies under their night gowns and coats when
they ran out for quick snacks just before curfew. But then, it would
never have occurred to me to go anywhere without my undies on Surprised)


We had the coolest housemother. She was around 65, I think, but may
have been younger and just seemed older to 20 year old me. Smile
Since we had one guy in our class, he wasn't permitted to stay in the
nurses' dorm so they got him an apartment 2 blocks away. A bunch of
us would go visit him often. Our housemother pretended not to notice
when we returned to the dorm one minute before curfew, some of us
unable to walk a straight line. 6:00 a.m. clinicals came awfully
early on some of those mornings. Great memories!!
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Earle Horton
medicine forum addict


Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:16 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:tYXng.10972$6d1.6082@trndny09...
Quote:

---snippy---
It has been my experience then and from what am hearing now the
increased emphasis on math and science, especially organic chemistry is
causing many pre-nursing students grief. Some colleges have organic
chem. just for nursing students (organic chem. lite), other schools
students must sit in the same class as pre-med, and other students. I'd
rather sit through two semesters of med dose calc, than one of organic
chemistry. *LOL*

I must admit to having no sympathy for people who don't get "A" in all their

chemistry courses. I suppose that this makes me a bad person, but I don't
care. I sat in the front with all the other nerds, and one of the best
parts was watching some of the would be pre-med students cry in public. Why
watch "Survivor"? An eighty-five year old was taking the course at the same
time, for personal enrichment.

But an interesting fact is that one can get a BSN or even an advance
practice MSN in Colorado, without having taken ANY college chemistry course.
One program specifies that "a lab course in a natural science" is a prereq.
This can be geology.

We do get some out of state nursing students, for this very reason. ;^)

Earle




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Starlight
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:25 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:03:21 GMT, "Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com>
posted:


Quote:
It has been my experience then and from what am hearing now the
increased emphasis on math and science, especially organic chemistry is
causing many pre-nursing students grief. Some colleges have organic
chem. just for nursing students (organic chem. lite), other schools
students must sit in the same class as pre-med, and other students. I'd
rather sit through two semesters of med dose calc, than one of organic
chemistry. *LOL*


I despised Organic Chemistry, plus the professor had a very heavy
German accent so I was lost from day 1. Toward the end of the
quarter, I asked what I could do to get my D- up to a passing grade so
I could stay in the nursing program. She told me I knew as much
Organic Chemistry as a nurse needed to know, and gave me a C in the
course, bless her heart!
Thankfully the Microbiology professor, who had an even heavier
accent, was equally as charitable. We nurses laughed for years
about the "shits on my sheets" we thought she was saying for
schizomycetes.
Becky
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Candide
medicine forum addict


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

+_



"Starlight" <homehealth_rnDELETE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nq11a2p5k22r33qnll37qhj8ju2im8trfc@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:03:21 GMT, "Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com
posted:


It has been my experience then and from what am hearing now the
increased emphasis on math and science, especially organic chemistry
is
causing many pre-nursing students grief. Some colleges have organic
chem. just for nursing students (organic chem. lite), other schools
students must sit in the same class as pre-med, and other students.
I'd
rather sit through two semesters of med dose calc, than one of
organic
chemistry. *LOL*


I despised Organic Chemistry, plus the professor had a very heavy
German accent so I was lost from day 1. Toward the end of the
quarter, I asked what I could do to get my D- up to a passing grade so
I could stay in the nursing program. She told me I knew as much
Organic Chemistry as a nurse needed to know, and gave me a C in the
course, bless her heart!

Think every school/college has professors that take sympathy on
pre-nursing/nursing students, know what stress they are under to get a
passing grade. We had a few (mostly guys) who thankfully were the "come
on, give us the "A"), when it came to exam scores and final grades. It
also helped if one had a friend,mother, sister ANYONE who went through
the program before you, that way one could find out which instructors
were easier to get on with, versus those that wouldn't curve an exam if
their lives depended upon it.


Quote:
Thankfully the Microbiology professor, who had an even heavier
accent, was equally as charitable. We nurses laughed for years
about the "shits on my sheets" we thought she was saying for
schizomycetes.
Becky

Microbiology is also something "new" that is giving some students grief.
In my day it was Bacteriology, and that was hard enough, thank you.

Candide
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Mortimer Schnerd, RN
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:47 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

Earle Horton wrote:
Quote:
But an interesting fact is that one can get a BSN or even an advance
practice MSN in Colorado, without having taken ANY college chemistry course.
One program specifies that "a lab course in a natural science" is a prereq.
This can be geology.


Doesn't bother me any. I've never needed chemistry in my practice. OTOH, I
found it an easy A. It used to piss my compatriots off that I approached
chemistry tests without dread. In fact, when I was taking the final in
inorganic chemistry, all I needed to score was 17 out of 100. This created many
chapped asses in my class.

I found organic chemistry much more challenging and while I still made an A, it
was just barely. Organic never seemed to make the same sense to me as inorganic
so it was more pure regurgitation than true understanding. I truly understood
inorganic.

But as I said, I've never needed either for nursing... just for nursing school.

If you want to know what has truly served me well as a nurse, it was the social
sciences: psychology and sociology. I've used what I learned there pretty much
daily at work.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

mschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE
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Candide
medicine forum addict


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:14 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
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Quote:

"Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:tYXng.10972$6d1.6082@trndny09...

Hawki63@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:NvXng.109239$H71.81309@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...

editor@netpath.net> wrote in message
news:1151353580.120619.222090@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Mortimer Schnerd, RN quoted someone else:
Two and a half to three years for an ADN? Not at my school.
We
had 44
units
to complete prior to the two years of nursing core courses (43
units).
I
graduated on May 30th.

and replied:
If you're going to screw around that much you might as well have
gotten
your
BSN.


I agree....

however...doesn't it take actually 5 years to get a BSN if you
start
right
out of high school?? things may have changed...but in "my"
prehistoric
days...college students didn't declare a major til after 2
years...thusly..it actually took 5 years to get in all the nursing
BS
(oops..meant the BAD BS)

Using Hunter College as a model,

ahhh...a fellow New Yorker!!!

Oh yeas! Remember Flower and Fifth? "Lenox Hill"?, Hospital for Special
Surgery? St. Vincent's in the Village? All great hospital programs long
gone. Lenox Hill just had a huge retirement do for a number of former
students of the school that are retiring. Last of the breed, and
probably never could have imagined how the profession was going to
change when they first started out.


Quote:
I was thinking of the program...I think that linked Columbia Pres and
maybe
NYU....that was a total of 5 years

yikes...Hunter College was my choice if I chose teaching instead of
nursing


Hunter/Bellevue nursing program has long been the crème de la crème of
NYC nursing schools. Competition was tight to get in, and grads highly
sought after. Today one can have a 4.0 or better and still wait several
semesters after completing pre-nursing to gain entry. It was one of
their students my sent to "observe" my friend (she works at Bellevue).
They used to look so cute in their uniforms, but now they wear lab
coats, IIRC.

Does Columbia still have an undergraduate nursing program? Thought it
was MSN and PhD? So many of NYC schools closed their door/stopped
offering nursing programs. City College comes to mind, and think Mount
Saint Vincent is next (they are no longer on the NLN accredited list,
and St Vinny's is in bankruptcy). Shame, St. Vinny's in the Village had
the coolest location, IMHO.



Quote:
of course I chose the latter cuz I was one of 8..and so diploma school
was
on the cheap


Frugal is the word, dear, not "cheap" *LOL*


Quote:
one spends 2 years taking pre-nursing
classes, then during the final semester of pre-nursing classes,
apply to
be formally accepted into the BSN nursing program which is two years
long. This is the "right out of high school" model, for students who
just graduated from high school as well as those without previous
college credits. Pre-nursing can become longer if one did not take
the
required math,English and perhaps science courses in high school to
or
pass the "placement" exams required by most college/universities.
For
instance one could not take the required statistics course at our
college unless one had completed a certain level of algebra in high
school, or passed the college's math placement exam with a certain
enough grade. Those lacking would have to take and pass the "no
credit"
math/English classes before being allowed to take the required
courses.
All this sets one back at least one semester, sometimes two.

Next problem is that in many colleges pre-nursing classes are shared
by
other health disciplines as well. So you have potential student
nurses,
dieticians and others all competing for the same slots. If you
cannot
register for the proper classes, again one is put back a semester.
Some
girls went to other schools to take the courses and applied to have
the
credits transferred.

It has been my experience then and from what am hearing now the
increased emphasis on math and science, especially organic chemistry
is
causing many pre-nursing students grief. Some colleges have organic
chem. just for nursing students (organic chem. lite), other schools
students must sit in the same class as pre-med, and other students.
I'd
rather sit through two semesters of med dose calc, than one of
organic
chemistry. *LOL*

The problem is that students know by several weeks into a semester
if
they are going to pass with the right grade for entry into the
nursing
program. Those that aren't on track to pass, often drop out to avoid
a
"F", which might keep them out of the program. This again sets one
back
a semester.

Finally as others have posted, it has almost become impossible to
gain
entry into some programs these days. Students with 4.0s and above
are
twisting in the wind waiting for entry, this means one will graduate
that much later.

of course this was well before nursing decided to shoot itself in
the
foot
be "allowing" bachelor's graduates to upgrade into a nursing major
./...."bridge" programs think they were called..


perhaps...and I am sure many many do well....as an NP tho...it sorta
churns
me to work alongside "bridge" grads that got a master's in nsg in
about 2
years.....ie...had never done bedside nsg or anything basic....

Yes, but think of how much easier it was for you because of your
previous nursing experience. I can see second degree BSN students, doing
"ok" since they basically are only skipping pre-nursing, but to take on
getting a MSN when one has not the slightest clue about nursing, has to
be daunting.
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