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Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs?
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Earle Horton
medicine forum addict


Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

Isn't the main argument against hospital-based programs expense? I mean, I
can argue all day long that I should be driving a new Mercedes, simply
because it is a "better car" than my ten year old Honda Civic, but that
doesn't mean that I could afford the payments. Similarly, society cannot
afford to give all nurses say 2,000 hours of clinical experience, before
they are even licensed.

BSN grads in programs of my state actually get more total clinical hours
than ADN grads. But maybe much of that is spent in the nurse's station
copying down information from charts, to be put in the care plan that is to
be handed in tomorrow. When I was in nursing school, I had a few clinical
assignments that were explicitly specified as "observational". One for
example was following a home health care nurse for a half day. Another was
in the OR. What class was your friend's student in, and what job does your
friend have?

Earle

"Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:igkng.5863$D03.4890@trndny03...
Quote:


Was chatting with a friend yesterday who works in one of the larger
hospitals in our area about the usual suspects, and talk quickly came
around to nursing students/school programs. My friend was "assigned" a
student last week who was supposed to do nothing for the duration but
"observe", which one gathers is pretty much common practice these days
as the emphasis in nursing education has titled towards academics vs.
practical.

The upshot from what one is hearing and sees is now not only is it the
BSN grads arriving on the floors with tons of theory but little direct
patient care skills, but many Associate grads as well. IMHO the
decreased emphasis on clinical in favour of academics contributes to the
seemingly high amount of new grads who arrive on the floors and when
being acquainted with their duties, bolt for the door ranting " I didn't
go to nursing school for this". There seems to be some sort of idea
floating around that aides and techs are there to do all the grunt
work/direct patient care, while RNs give orders. Granted this is the way
the profession is moving (more because of the shortage of bedside RNs,
than anything else), but this does not seem right.

Nursing skills are honed by time, if one never uses them or holds them
in low value then they never will become "second nature" enough for an
RN to feel competent in all situations. My asking about bringing diploma
programs back is because to date most produced some of the best nurses
around. Thoughts?

Candide





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 222

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Earle Horton" <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote in message
news:449ee2e3$0$9891$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
Quote:
Isn't the main argument against hospital-based programs expense?

expense???? you mean all those 40 hour weeks I spent working as a student
nurse???/ doing my 5-7 patients per shift did not SAVE my diploma hospital
money?????

hard to believe...very hard to believe....you must not be a diploma grad




I mean, I
Quote:
can argue all day long that I should be driving a new Mercedes, simply
because it is a "better car" than my ten year old Honda Civic, but that
doesn't mean that I could afford the payments. Similarly, society cannot
afford to give all nurses say 2,000 hours of clinical experience, before
they are even licensed.

BSN grads in programs of my state actually get more total clinical hours
than ADN grads. But maybe much of that is spent in the nurse's station
copying down information from charts, to be put in the care plan that is
to
be handed in tomorrow. When I was in nursing school, I had a few clinical
assignments that were explicitly specified as "observational". One for
example was following a home health care nurse for a half day. Another
was
in the OR. What class was your friend's student in, and what job does
your
friend have?

Earle

"Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:igkng.5863$D03.4890@trndny03...


Was chatting with a friend yesterday who works in one of the larger
hospitals in our area about the usual suspects, and talk quickly came
around to nursing students/school programs. My friend was "assigned" a
student last week who was supposed to do nothing for the duration but
"observe", which one gathers is pretty much common practice these days
as the emphasis in nursing education has titled towards academics vs.
practical.

The upshot from what one is hearing and sees is now not only is it the
BSN grads arriving on the floors with tons of theory but little direct
patient care skills, but many Associate grads as well. IMHO the
decreased emphasis on clinical in favour of academics contributes to the
seemingly high amount of new grads who arrive on the floors and when
being acquainted with their duties, bolt for the door ranting " I didn't
go to nursing school for this". There seems to be some sort of idea
floating around that aides and techs are there to do all the grunt
work/direct patient care, while RNs give orders. Granted this is the way
the profession is moving (more because of the shortage of bedside RNs,
than anything else), but this does not seem right.

Nursing skills are honed by time, if one never uses them or holds them
in low value then they never will become "second nature" enough for an
RN to feel competent in all situations. My asking about bringing diploma
programs back is because to date most produced some of the best nurses
around. Thoughts?

Candide





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Back to top
Candide
medicine forum addict


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Earle Horton" <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote in message
news:449ee2e3$0$9891$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
Quote:
Isn't the main argument against hospital-based programs expense? I
mean, I
can argue all day long that I should be driving a new Mercedes, simply
because it is a "better car" than my ten year old Honda Civic, but
that
doesn't mean that I could afford the payments. Similarly, society
cannot
afford to give all nurses say 2,000 hours of clinical experience,
before
they are even licensed.

Suppose there is some expense in maintaining the buildings and or
classroom spaces for a nursing program, but what has done in diploma
progams has been the push towards, what the NLN and others call a
"better educated nurse". While quite a few diploma programs closed or
moved over to Associate or BSN college/university programs post WWII,
the term "better educated" today means having the BSN.
Indeed some nursing organisation websites refer to diploma and Associate
programs as "technical" nursing because of their supposed focus on
"pratical" nursing skills.

As to what society can "afford", can society "afford" to produce nurses
who do not stay more than a year on the floors because after spending
four or more years in school they realise "this is not what I went to
nursing school" for, when it comes to patient care?

Can society "afford" the shortage of nurses simply because not everyone
can afford the time and or funds to spend four years or more at a BSN
program?
Quote:

BSN grads in programs of my state actually get more total clinical
hours
than ADN grads. But maybe much of that is spent in the nurse's
station
copying down information from charts, to be put in the care plan that
is to
be handed in tomorrow. When I was in nursing school, I had a few
clinical
assignments that were explicitly specified as "observational". One
for
example was following a home health care nurse for a half day.
Another was
in the OR. What class was your friend's student in, and what job does
your
friend have?

Earle

There is "clinical" and there is clinical. I'm not speaking of a day
following behind a RN peeking over their shoulders, but actually rolling
one's sleeves up and getting one's hands dirty. In my day, clinical was
spent doing, learning to put the skills,theory and knowledge learned in
classroom to use in the "real world". Of course in certain areas such as
the OR or L&D one could not do much but observe. But as my friend states
(she used to do straight 7-3 OR, now has switched over to "relief" 11-7
work), having someone standing about/looking over one's shoulder as you
are trying to get on is at best distracting and at worse aggravating.
Like many urban hospitals, hers is plagued by high census with low
staffing, supply shortages, and the rest. Doctors moving/transporting
patients without telling anyone, patients arriving onto the unit without
warning and no reporting off, and all the rest. Into this mix add
several students standing around in white coats asking "why are you
doing that"?
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editor@netpath.net
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

Candide wrote:
Quote:
Nursing skills are honed by time, if one never uses them or holds them
in low value then they never will become "second nature" enough for an
RN to feel competent in all situations. My asking about bringing diploma
programs back is because to date most produced some of the best nurses
around. Thoughts?

Mine? It's obvious - from an RN shortage to the point top hospitals
in North Carolina are renting very-expensive billboards on interstates
seeking nurses and from $4,000 signing bonuses - that there now are too
few RN programs. That's more obvious when you finish all prerequisites
with a B+ average for your community college's RN program and still
can't get in - as the ratio between the number of prenursing students
who've finished prerequisites and slots in the place's RN program is so
high. Unless new RN programs are established - soon - the shortage of
RNs is doomed to perpetuate itself for the next few years.

No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
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Mortimer Schnerd, RN
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

editor@netpath.net wrote:
Quote:
Mine? It's obvious - from an RN shortage to the point top hospitals
in North Carolina are renting very-expensive billboards on interstates
seeking nurses and from $4,000 signing bonuses - that there now are too
few RN programs. That's more obvious when you finish all prerequisites
with a B+ average for your community college's RN program and still
can't get in - as the ratio between the number of prenursing students
who've finished prerequisites and slots in the place's RN program is so
high. Unless new RN programs are established - soon - the shortage of
RNs is doomed to perpetuate itself for the next few years.


There are only so many four year colleges in this state but damned near every
county has a community college offering a two year degree in nursing. It seems
like every nursing assistant I know who has aspirations for higher is on a
waiting list for one of the local schools. Nobody seems to ever get in... don't
know what's up with that. I do know they're always looking for instructors...
but the ones they want are masters prepared. They don't grow on trees anymore
nor are they the best ones to educate nurses in many cases anyway.

I do know that *real* nursing is learned on the job over the first year or so.
Nursing school just gave me a license to learn but was very limited in what it
taught. I really learned on the job. Who taught me? The floor staff. The
ones who actually do the work. That included nursing assistants, too. Only the
stupid ignores what the assistant has to say. (You don't have to act on it but
you better at least consider it if you have any brains at all.)

The only masters prepared nurse on my unit is my manager... and she doesn't know
how to get a med out of the Pyxis or how to turn off a beeping IVAC. Then
again, that isn't her job... she is very good at managing... and that *is* her
job.

It's been my experience the diploma nurses hit the floor running, the ADN nurses
hit the floor walking and the BSN nurses just hit the floor. After a couple of
years on the job, you can't tell the difference between any of them. They learn
on the job.

Now, I didn't go through a diploma program but I'm told this is the deal: they
get the same two years worth of classes and clinical as ADN students. Then they
get that third year where they get to serve as unpaid nurses for the hospital.
Think of it as the same as the first year on the job for an ADN nurse. At the
end of the third year they take the NCLEX. It's no wonder they hit the floor
running. They've already got a year on the job (where the real training takes
place). The hospital loves them because they save $40,000 with each one they
have working for free.

Mr. A. Lincoln worked out an arrangement some years ago dealing with working for
free so I don't have to do it. Probably most other nursing students don't want
to do it either. Which is why the ADN programs are so popular.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

mschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE
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Candide
medicine forum addict


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mortschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE> wrote in
message news:fGNng.16080$R26.9008@tornado.southeast.rr.com...
Quote:
editor@netpath.net wrote:
Mine? It's obvious - from an RN shortage to the point top
hospitals
in North Carolina are renting very-expensive billboards on
interstates
seeking nurses and from $4,000 signing bonuses - that there now are
too
few RN programs. That's more obvious when you finish all
prerequisites
with a B+ average for your community college's RN program and still
can't get in - as the ratio between the number of prenursing
students
who've finished prerequisites and slots in the place's RN program is
so
high. Unless new RN programs are established - soon - the shortage
of
RNs is doomed to perpetuate itself for the next few years.


There are only so many four year colleges in this state but damned
near every
county has a community college offering a two year degree in nursing.
It seems
like every nursing assistant I know who has aspirations for higher is
on a
waiting list for one of the local schools. Nobody seems to ever get
in... don't
know what's up with that. I do know they're always looking for
instructors...
but the ones they want are masters prepared. They don't grow on trees
anymore
nor are they the best ones to educate nurses in many cases anyway.

I do know that *real* nursing is learned on the job over the first
year or so.
Nursing school just gave me a license to learn but was very limited in
what it
taught. I really learned on the job. Who taught me? The floor
staff. The
ones who actually do the work. That included nursing assistants, too.
Only the
stupid ignores what the assistant has to say. (You don't have to act
on it but
you better at least consider it if you have any brains at all.)

The only masters prepared nurse on my unit is my manager... and she
doesn't know
how to get a med out of the Pyxis or how to turn off a beeping IVAC.
Then
again, that isn't her job... she is very good at managing... and that
*is* her
job.

It's been my experience the diploma nurses hit the floor running, the
ADN nurses
hit the floor walking and the BSN nurses just hit the floor. After a
couple of
years on the job, you can't tell the difference between any of them.
They learn
on the job.

Now, I didn't go through a diploma program but I'm told this is the
deal: they
get the same two years worth of classes and clinical as ADN students.
Then they
get that third year where they get to serve as unpaid nurses for the
hospital.
Think of it as the same as the first year on the job for an ADN nurse.
At the
end of the third year they take the NCLEX. It's no wonder they hit
the floor
running. They've already got a year on the job (where the real
training takes
place). The hospital loves them because they save $40,000 with each
one they
have working for free.

Most diploma programs did not/do not have a "pre-nursing" sequence. Once
accepted into the program you start right away with some introductory
nursing courses, while taking the basic science, math and other courses
that ADN students spend a semester or more taking BEFORE even applying.
Thus ADN programs run 2 1/2 to three years (if one stays on track),
including the pre-nursing sequence, so the two programs pretty much run
the same amount of time.


Quote:
Mr. A. Lincoln worked out an arrangement some years ago dealing with
working for
free so I don't have to do it. Probably most other nursing students
don't want
to do it either. Which is why the ADN programs are so popular.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Though probably considered "working" the time diploma nurses spent on
the floors was considered part of their education, one of the reasons
why most made the adjustment from students to RNs so easily, they
literally cut their eye teeth on the floors.

Candide
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Mortimer Schnerd, RN
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

Candide wrote:
Quote:
Most diploma programs did not/do not have a "pre-nursing" sequence. Once
accepted into the program you start right away with some introductory
nursing courses, while taking the basic science, math and other courses
that ADN students spend a semester or more taking BEFORE even applying.
Thus ADN programs run 2 1/2 to three years (if one stays on track),
including the pre-nursing sequence, so the two programs pretty much run
the same amount of time.



Hmmm.... my ADN program started the last week of August of 1990 and I started
work as a graduate nurse May 25, 1992. I took NO prerequisites. I started from
scratch taking English composition, inorganic chemistry, intro to psych and
whatever they called the first nursing course that first semester. I can't
remember the exact sequence but you get the drift: I took a nursing course
every semester along with whatever they said I needed to graduate with an ADN.
I worked the summer between the two academic years as a NA.

If I calculate correctly that worked out to 18 months of classes but 21 calendar
months from start to finish. No prerequisites. Passed the NCLEX the first time
it was offered.

I had not stepped into a classroom in the years 1976 to 1990, nor have I since.
At this point, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes. Nursing school sucked.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

mschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE
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<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 222

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:FzOng.4569$pv2.3528@trndny05...
Quote:






"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mortschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE> wrote in
message news:fGNng.16080$R26.9008@tornado.southeast.rr.com...
editor@netpath.net wrote:
Mine? It's obvious - from an RN shortage to the point top
hospitals
in North Carolina are renting very-expensive billboards on
interstates
seeking nurses and from $4,000 signing bonuses - that there now are
too
few RN programs. That's more obvious when you finish all
prerequisites
with a B+ average for your community college's RN program and still
can't get in - as the ratio between the number of prenursing
students
who've finished prerequisites and slots in the place's RN program is
so
high. Unless new RN programs are established - soon - the shortage
of
RNs is doomed to perpetuate itself for the next few years.


There are only so many four year colleges in this state but damned
near every
county has a community college offering a two year degree in nursing.
It seems
like every nursing assistant I know who has aspirations for higher is
on a
waiting list for one of the local schools. Nobody seems to ever get
in... don't
know what's up with that. I do know they're always looking for
instructors...
but the ones they want are masters prepared. They don't grow on trees
anymore
nor are they the best ones to educate nurses in many cases anyway.

I do know that *real* nursing is learned on the job over the first
year or so.
Nursing school just gave me a license to learn but was very limited in
what it
taught. I really learned on the job. Who taught me? The floor
staff. The
ones who actually do the work. That included nursing assistants, too.
Only the
stupid ignores what the assistant has to say. (You don't have to act
on it but
you better at least consider it if you have any brains at all.)

The only masters prepared nurse on my unit is my manager... and she
doesn't know
how to get a med out of the Pyxis or how to turn off a beeping IVAC.
Then
again, that isn't her job... she is very good at managing... and that
*is* her
job.

It's been my experience the diploma nurses hit the floor running, the
ADN nurses
hit the floor walking and the BSN nurses just hit the floor. After a
couple of
years on the job, you can't tell the difference between any of them.
They learn
on the job.

Now, I didn't go through a diploma program but I'm told this is the
deal: they
get the same two years worth of classes and clinical as ADN students.
Then they
get that third year where they get to serve as unpaid nurses for the
hospital.
Think of it as the same as the first year on the job for an ADN nurse.
At the
end of the third year they take the NCLEX. It's no wonder they hit
the floor
running. They've already got a year on the job (where the real
training takes
place). The hospital loves them because they save $40,000 with each
one they
have working for free.

Most diploma programs did not/do not have a "pre-nursing" sequence. Once
accepted into the program you start right away with some introductory
nursing courses, while taking the basic science, math and other courses
that ADN students spend a semester or more taking BEFORE even applying.
Thus ADN programs run 2 1/2 to three years (if one stays on track),
including the pre-nursing sequence, so the two programs pretty much run
the same amount of time.


Mr. A. Lincoln worked out an arrangement some years ago dealing with
working for
free so I don't have to do it. Probably most other nursing students
don't want
to do it either. Which is why the ADN programs are so popular.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Though probably considered "working" the time diploma nurses spent on
the floors was considered part of their education, one of the reasons
why most made the adjustment from students to RNs so easily, they
literally cut their eye teeth on the floors.


now I know I am older than dirt...started my diploma program in 62 right out
of high school...our "education" tho they called it "training" then was
thusly

from day one we spent 4 days a week being bussed to the local state
community college...taking all the "usual" ADN type classes..including PE
and Speech (came in handy years later as those credits transferred
intact)...the fifth day we spent on the floors...and yes that day we had "in
hospital classroom" classes as well...

from there on...our next two years...and recall that diploma nurses actually
went to "school" for three "calendar" years...which was 33 months...each of
the second and part of the third year we split up into three month
"rotations" ..including Psych(which we spent living at a local state
hospital)...as well as Peds,,,OR,,OB etc etc...

and we DID learn to scrub and circulate in the OR...and in OB...our
"training" included both classroom and "floor" experiences ...

I graduated on Friday..and MOnday am was a staff ,member on the floor of my
choice..they called us "GN then...graduate nurses"..and we were paid as
RNs...and we did the work of RNs...we took "stateboards several months
later"... no NCLEX...each state had their own boards...and it took nearly
two months to get results

I LOVED my diploma experience..it gave me the background to proceed on thru
the RN educational ladder...ADN,,BSN and MSN (am an NP)

throughtout the following years...I was appalled at how little the other
"students" seemed to know...


ahhhhh...the 60's..

yep...they fed and clothed us..and the 3 year "tuition" was about
$1000...money well spent


Quote:

Candide

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Earle Horton
medicine forum addict


Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:FzOng.4569$pv2.3528@trndny05...
Quote:

---snippy---
Mr. A. Lincoln worked out an arrangement some years ago dealing
with working for free so I don't have to do it. Probably most
other nursing students don't want to do it either. Which is why the
ADN programs are so popular.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Though probably considered "working" the time diploma nurses spent
on the floors was considered part of their education, one of the
reasons why most made the adjustment from students to RNs so
easily, they literally cut their eye teeth on the floors.

Candide

This is considered an "apprenticeship", and apprentices get paid for their

efforts. There is something to be said for your hands-on learning
philosophy though. An electrician's apprentice, for example, carries the
tool bag, takes courses in electricity, and asks the journeymen and masters
what they are up to, after they get to know him a bit. He gets paid for the
part, where he carries the tool bag. It is assumed in the beginning, that
the only task he can do competently, is to carry that tool bag. Other tasks
are delegated, when he is ready for them. However, by the time he takes the
electrician's exam his sleeves have been rolled up and his hands have been
dirty, just like the master's.

I gather that you believe, that a process like that would produce better
nurses, than what we have now. Or at least better graduate nurses. This
may be so, but I think that one can question some of your basic assumptions.
One is that nurses only quit the field, after they have gotten their
licenses. Another is your tendency to devalue that which is learned in the
classroom. Another is the assumption that all students will need the same
amount of hands-on supervision, or hours of work, before they are ready for
licensing.

Earle



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Truckdude
medicine forum addict


Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Candide" <PityMePines@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:FzOng.4569$pv2.3528@trndny05...
Quote:






"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mortschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE> wrote in
message news:fGNng.16080$R26.9008@tornado.southeast.rr.com...
editor@netpath.net wrote:
Mine? It's obvious - from an RN shortage to the point top
hospitals
in North Carolina are renting very-expensive billboards on
interstates
seeking nurses and from $4,000 signing bonuses - that there now are
too
few RN programs. That's more obvious when you finish all
prerequisites
with a B+ average for your community college's RN program and still
can't get in - as the ratio between the number of prenursing
students
who've finished prerequisites and slots in the place's RN program is
so
high. Unless new RN programs are established - soon - the shortage
of
RNs is doomed to perpetuate itself for the next few years.


There are only so many four year colleges in this state but damned
near every
county has a community college offering a two year degree in nursing.
It seems
like every nursing assistant I know who has aspirations for higher is
on a
waiting list for one of the local schools. Nobody seems to ever get
in... don't
know what's up with that. I do know they're always looking for
instructors...
but the ones they want are masters prepared. They don't grow on trees
anymore
nor are they the best ones to educate nurses in many cases anyway.

I do know that *real* nursing is learned on the job over the first
year or so.
Nursing school just gave me a license to learn but was very limited in
what it
taught. I really learned on the job. Who taught me? The floor
staff. The
ones who actually do the work. That included nursing assistants, too.
Only the
stupid ignores what the assistant has to say. (You don't have to act
on it but
you better at least consider it if you have any brains at all.)

The only masters prepared nurse on my unit is my manager... and she
doesn't know
how to get a med out of the Pyxis or how to turn off a beeping IVAC.
Then
again, that isn't her job... she is very good at managing... and that
*is* her
job.

It's been my experience the diploma nurses hit the floor running, the
ADN nurses
hit the floor walking and the BSN nurses just hit the floor. After a
couple of
years on the job, you can't tell the difference between any of them.
They learn
on the job.

Now, I didn't go through a diploma program but I'm told this is the
deal: they
get the same two years worth of classes and clinical as ADN students.
Then they
get that third year where they get to serve as unpaid nurses for the
hospital.
Think of it as the same as the first year on the job for an ADN nurse.
At the
end of the third year they take the NCLEX. It's no wonder they hit
the floor
running. They've already got a year on the job (where the real
training takes
place). The hospital loves them because they save $40,000 with each
one they
have working for free.

Most diploma programs did not/do not have a "pre-nursing" sequence. Once
accepted into the program you start right away with some introductory
nursing courses, while taking the basic science, math and other courses
that ADN students spend a semester or more taking BEFORE even applying.
Thus ADN programs run 2 1/2 to three years (if one stays on track),
including the pre-nursing sequence, so the two programs pretty much run
the same amount of time.




Two and a half to three years for an ADN? Not at my school. We had 44 units
to complete prior to the two years of nursing core courses (43 units). I
graduated on May 30th.

http://www.msjc.edu/alliedhealth/rn.htm









Quote:

Mr. A. Lincoln worked out an arrangement some years ago dealing with
working for
free so I don't have to do it. Probably most other nursing students
don't want
to do it either. Which is why the ADN programs are so popular.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Though probably considered "working" the time diploma nurses spent on
the floors was considered part of their education, one of the reasons
why most made the adjustment from students to RNs so easily, they
literally cut their eye teeth on the floors.

Candide

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Mortimer Schnerd, RN
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

Quote:
Two and a half to three years for an ADN? Not at my school. We had 44 units
to complete prior to the two years of nursing core courses (43 units). I
graduated on May 30th.


If you're going to screw around that much you might as well have gotten your
BSN. My thinking was to rejoin the work force ASAP. I was't living on the
largess of Mom and Dad any more. I needed to support myself and I did. 21
months from stat to finish.

Like Hawk63, we were called graduate nurses and paid RN pay from our first day
on the job on May 25th. I took the NCLEX when it was first offered (in July).
We were in the last class to take the NCLEX on paper. Results didn't come out
until October. If I had failed, my pay and position would have been degraded to
CNA-II. As it was, I passed but no pay raise either.

My first paycheck as a floor nurse was at $13.35 an hour. The amazing part to
me was now they were giving me money to do what I'd been doing all along, only
now I didn't have to study before I showed up.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

mschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE
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Starlight
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:54:03 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mortschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE> posted:


Quote:
If you're going to screw around that much you might as well have gotten your
BSN. My thinking was to rejoin the work force ASAP. I was't living on the
largess of Mom and Dad any more. I needed to support myself and I did. 21
months from stat to finish.


My Diploma program was an experiment. We attended the university for
3 quarters for credit. I HATED every second of it, as I wanted to do
nursing. Then we went to the nursing school the rest of the time.
Start to finish, 28 months. We did a lot of clinical, but I also
worked as an aide in the ICU on weekends so got a lot of experience
that way. They stopped permitting aides to work in the ICU a few
years later.

My first day as a GN, I worked in ICU and an aide asked me to mix an
IV. I was pretty much clueless, as we hadn't been permitted to do
that in nursing school. Sure had a lot to learn, but 9 months after
graduation I was a night charge nurse in a 12 bed ICU, starting IV's,
doing arterial sticks, running codes. Loved it. :)

Went back for my BSn 5 years later, wasted my money and my time,
although I guess it's opened a couple doors for me because I have
those 'letters'.
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<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 222

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mortschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE> wrote in message
news:f3Wng.3377$so3.1587@southeast.rr.com...
Quote:
Two and a half to three years for an ADN? Not at my school. We had 44
units
to complete prior to the two years of nursing core courses (43 units). I
graduated on May 30th.


If you're going to screw around that much you might as well have gotten
your BSN. My thinking was to rejoin the work force ASAP. I was't living
on the largess of Mom and Dad any more. I needed to support myself and I
did. 21 months from stat to finish.

Like Hawk63, we were called graduate nurses and paid RN pay from our first
day on the job on May 25th. I took the NCLEX when it was first offered
(in July). We were in the last class to take the NCLEX on paper. Results
didn't come out until October. If I had failed, my pay and position would
have been degraded to CNA-II. As it was, I passed but no pay raise
either.

My first paycheck as a floor nurse was at $13.35 an hour.

dating myself here...but...my first job(the monday after I grad on
friday)...was $2.25 an hour...yep....$90 a week folks!!! however...I also
shared a pretty big 2 bedroom apt with three friends..and montly rent..with
utilities was $100...

ahhhhhh.....the 60's



The amazing part to
Quote:
me was now they were giving me money to do what I'd been doing all along,
only now I didn't have to study before I showed up.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

mschnerd@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE

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editor@netpath.net
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

Mortimer Schnerd, RN quoted someone else:
Quote:
Two and a half to three years for an ADN? Not at my school. We had 44 units
to complete prior to the two years of nursing core courses (43 units). I
graduated on May 30th.

and replied:
Quote:
If you're going to screw around that much you might as well have gotten your
BSN. My thinking was to rejoin the work force ASAP. I was't living on the
largess of Mom and Dad any more. I needed to support myself and I did. 21
months from stat to finish.

At least here in North Carolina, you aren't going to finish any ADN
program - from start to finish - in anywhere near 21 months. The
nursing programs themselves at community colleges here run five or six
semesters - not counting a couple semesters of prerequisites you have
to take in advance, within five years.
And that's aside from community college ADN programs in this state
running waiting lists in at least some major locales.

No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
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<Hawki63@sbcglobal.net
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 222

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Bring Back Diploma/Hospital Based Nursing Programs? Reply with quote

<editor@netpath.net> wrote in message
news:1151353580.120619.222090@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Mortimer Schnerd, RN quoted someone else:
Two and a half to three years for an ADN? Not at my school. We had 44
units
to complete prior to the two years of nursing core courses (43 units).
I
graduated on May 30th.

and replied:
If you're going to screw around that much you might as well have gotten
your
BSN.


I agree....

however...doesn't it take actually 5 years to get a BSN if you start right
out of high school?? things may have changed...but in "my" prehistoric
days...college students didn't declare a major til after 2
years...thusly..it actually took 5 years to get in all the nursing BS
(oops..meant the BAD BS)

of course this was well before nursing decided to shoot itself in the foot
be "allowing" bachelor's graduates to upgrade into a nursing major
../...."bridge" programs think they were called..
My thinking was to rejoin the work force ASAP. I was't living on the
Quote:
largess of Mom and Dad any more. I needed to support myself and I did.
21
months from stat to finish.

At least here in North Carolina, you aren't going to finish any ADN
program - from start to finish - in anywhere near 21 months. The
nursing programs themselves at community colleges here run five or six
semesters - not counting a couple semesters of prerequisites you have
to take in advance, within five years.
And that's aside from community college ADN programs in this state
running waiting lists in at least some major locales.

No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
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