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Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this)
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict


Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
Quote:
You can find that page at:
http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/thebestpracticaldietandtheexplanationforit.msnw

Also, at the main page, you should see a link that says "the best
practical diet," so you could also just click on that. And in the
future, the only way to be sure to get a response from me is to post
there, because I don't keep up to date on all these threads.
books.

Thanks for answering, and see you in your forum.
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monty1945@lycos.com
medicine forum addict


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

You can find that page at:
http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/thebestpracticaldietandtheexplanationforit.msnw

Also, at the main page, you should see a link that says "the best
practical diet," so you could also just click on that. And in the
future, the only way to be sure to get a response from me is to post
there, because I don't keep up to date on all these threads.

To answer some questions:

There is a huge difference between how you prepare fish. Frying is
really unhealthy, boil or making it in a sauce on low heat is much
better. You are better off eating fish that is very low in fat, so
look for things like flounder. If it smells at all bad, don't eat it.
You can also eat it with antioxidant-rich foods to further protect
yourself. On a side note, you might want to get a copy of Bruce Fife's
book, Saturated fat may save your life. There are some problems with
it, but overall it is very comprehensive and explains things in a way
that is easy to understand for those who don't have command of the
technical language.

The body will make its own polyunsaturated fatty acid, the very stable
Mead acid, if you eat very small amounts of polyunsaturated fatty
acids, so the claims that you need to eat them is just silly. As I
quoted on my web site, the notion of "essential fatty acids" was
DIRECTLY refuted as far back as 1948. I and several others I know have
been avoiding them for several years now. However, a pregnant woman
might need small amounts, which would explain the odd cravings they
sometimes have, but there is no way to know at this point. I speak for
human adults who are not pregnant and in good health only, though I
will look into things and share my thoughts if you wish.

If you want to read about another ridiculous claim, that of a
structural lipid bilayer membrane, read some of Gilbert's Ling's books.
You can also go to his site, which I think is www.gilbertling.org
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Ron Peterson
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:18 am    Post subject: Re: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

Davide wrote:

Quote:
Their findings shed light on the ongoing dilemma in scientific circles
as to
how saturated and trans fats cause an increase in blood cholesterol and
triglycerides, while diets high in unsaturated and polyunsaturated fats
do not.

It's a little more complex than that. The fatty acids need to be
balanced primarily so that the cell walls will have the right type of
phospholipids. Phospholipids have two fatty acids, usually one
saturated and one unsaturated. It is best if the unsaturated fatty acid
is EPA or DHA.

--
Ron
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict


Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I agree with my learned "colleagues," using obscentities will
always win the day on a scientific newsgroup. Of course, when someone
makes a claim that something has never been done in a way that meets
the standards of the scientific method (or in this case, has never been
defined in a precise way), it is very important to never, ever, cite
any evidence. The obscentities work just fine.

:-)

Monty, I read over your msn discussion site. Intriguing. I have a
question for you -- you claim that all polyunsaturates are harmful,
especially the lack of need for fish oil (and you're probably right),
BUT what about eating whole fish? I mean, the salmon fillets that I
eat have several grams of omega 3. Is this bad?

Also, I can't find on your site where exactly your "diet"
recommendations are...can you please point me to it?

Thanks!
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Mr-Natural-Health
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1807

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

monty1945@lycos.com wrote:

Quote:
Yes, I agree with my learned "colleagues," using obscentities will
always win the day on a scientific newsgroup. Of course, when someone
makes a claim that something has never been done in a way that meets
the standards of the scientific method (or in this case, has never been
defined in a precise way), it is very important to never, ever, cite
any evidence. The obscentities work just fine.

What is truly obscene, is a buffoon like you yakking away on smn
despite the fact that time and time again, Monty has been proved to be
both a fool and dangerous.

Who says so? I do. Who else would, if not me?
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monty1945@lycos.com
medicine forum addict


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

Yes, I agree with my learned "colleagues," using obscentities will
always win the day on a scientific newsgroup. Of course, when someone
makes a claim that something has never been done in a way that meets
the standards of the scientific method (or in this case, has never been
defined in a precise way), it is very important to never, ever, cite
any evidence. The obscentities work just fine.

:-)
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Mr-Natural-Health
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1807

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

GMCarter wrote:
Quote:
On 17 Jun 2006 23:39:16 -0700, monty1945@lycos.com wrote:

Also, it's worth mentioning that "saturated fat" can never have a
precise scientific definition in the context of actual human diets, and
so it is ridiculous to talk in these terms.

Utter bullshit.

Ditto!
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GMCarter
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

On 17 Jun 2006 23:39:16 -0700, monty1945@lycos.com wrote:

Quote:
Also, it's worth mentioning that "saturated fat" can never have a
precise scientific definition in the context of actual human diets, and
so it is ridiculous to talk in these terms.

Utter bullshit.
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monty1945@lycos.com
medicine forum addict


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

Also, it's worth mentioning that "saturated fat" can never have a
precise scientific definition in the context of actual human diets, and
so it is ridiculous to talk in these terms. One can, however, feed a
bunch or dogs, rats, etc., one kind of fat at 30% calories (such as a
sunflower and fish oil combination) and another group the same diet
except substituting fresh coconut oil for the sunflower and fish oil,
and see which group lives longer. You can do that yourself with
inexpensive mice, actually. I had a huge bag of shredded coconut in my
basement a couple of winters ago, and mice got into the basement and
started eating it, avoiding the other food I had down there that was
packaged the same way - let nature be your guide.

:-)
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monty1945@lycos.com
medicine forum addict


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

It is healthy to have cholesterol levels higher than what the "experts"
are recommending these days. Even Ancel Keys noted that 200-220 was
the best range for longevity. As long as the cholesterol is not
oxidized or does not get oxidized, which happens when your diet is high
in polyunsaturated fatty acids. Same thing with TGs - if they are
mostly saturated, you will not have a problem with them. Often, lard
is used in experiments in which it is claimed that "saturated fat is
bad," but lard is now about 39% saturated and has no antioxidants, and
is usually cooked while exposed to air, making lard a very unhealthy
food, while coconut oil is 92% saturated and very healthy. How is it
that those people on high coconut oil diets have such low rates of
"chronic disease?" Well, these "researchers" don't even address that
fact, do they? Instead, they assume that the textbooks statements
about "cholesterol" are accurate, even though it is now known that
oxidized cholesterol is the only thing you need to worry about in this
context.

For more information that will help you preserve your health, go to:

http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-

If you want to ask me questions, cite a study and ask for
clarification, etc., you can do it from the message board that is on
that site.
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Davide
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:29 am    Post subject: Sat fat proven dangerous (explain this) Reply with quote

I just found this and I'd like to know what people who believe
saturated fats are healthy and necessary for health think of this
study. I too believed that it wasn't proven that sat fat caused
cardiocircolatory disease, there was just a correlation but a
correlation can be interpreted in many different ways. But this study
seems to prove once and for all that does exist a mechanism which makes
saturated fat unhealthy

Scientists have identified a molecular mechanism in the liver
that explains how consuming foods rich in saturated fats and
trans-fatty
acids can send blood levels of cholesterol and triglycerides soaring.

US researchers report that the harmful effects of saturated and trans
fats
are set in motion by a biochemical switch, or co-activator, in liver
cells
called PGC-1beta.

Their findings shed light on the ongoing dilemma in scientific circles
as to
how saturated and trans fats cause an increase in blood cholesterol and
triglycerides, while diets high in unsaturated and polyunsaturated fats
do
not.

"What we have found is a missing link, a mechanism by which saturated
fats
and trans fats can do their dirty work," said Bruce Spiegelman,
involved in
the research at the US Dana-Farber institute.

Their findings could open up opportunities for food scientists
currently
working on technologies to slice out harmful trans fats from their food
formulations.

Trans fatty acids (TFAs) are formed when liquid vegetable oils go
through a
chemical process called hydrogenation. Hydrogenated vegetable fat is
used by
food processors because it is solid at room temperature and has a
longer
shelf life.

But mounting evidence suggests the TFAs raise LDL (bad) cholesterol
levels,
causing the arteries to become more rigid and clogged. An increase in
LDL
cholesterol levels can lead to heart disease.

Demand for trans fat free food products is pushing new product
developments,
particularly in the US where incoming rules mean that by 1 January 2006
all
trans fats in food products will have to be labelled on the nutritional
panel.

Europe has yet to introduce a similar rule, but consumer organisations
are
pressing for such transparency and food makers are feeling market
pressure
to slice TFAs from their products.

In 2003 Denmark became the first country in the world to introduce
restrictions on the use of industrially produced trans fatty acids.
Oils and
fat are now forbidden on the Danish market if they contain trans fatty
acids
exceeding 2 per cent.

Reporting their findings in Cell, the researchers report that when
activated
by harmful fats, PGC-1beta alters liver metabolism through a cascade of
biochemical signals.

The result is an upsurge in the liver's production of very low-density
lipoprotein (VLDL) cholesterol, the precursor of low-density
lipoprotein
(LDL), or 'bad' cholesterol and triglycerides - another fatty substance
-
that are secreted into the bloodstream.

PGC-1beta belongs to a specific family of co-activators, proteins that
interact with other proteins to turn genes on and off and adjust their
activity, like a dimmer switch that varies the brightness of a light,
say
the scientists.

Co-activators join with other regulatory proteins called transcription
factors in controlling the expression of genes.

The Dana-Farber researchers made the discovery in searching for the
function
of PGC-1beta co-activator that was isolated in 2002.

Experiments including the measurement of gene activity by microarrays
showed
that saturated and trans fats caused greater activity of the gene that
makes
PGC-1beta co-activator than did unsaturated fats.

The research also showed that when the fats triggered PGC-1beta, the
co-activator interacted physically and turned up the function of sterol
responsive element binding proteins.

These important parts of the mechanism activate many key genes of lipid
biosynthesis involving the pathways of cholesterol and triglycerides;
these
genes directed the liver to manufacture more cholesterol, which it does
in
the form of very low-density lipoproteins.

The investigators noted that in mice fed high-fat diets, the PCG-1beta
mechanism actually decreased cholesterol in the liver while increasing
it in
the bloodstream.

Full findings are published in the 28 January issue of Cell.

Joining other ingredients firms reaching out to target trans fat free
formulations, US firm Cargill and Germany's Bayer CropScience announced
a
link up this week to bring a new speciality oil to market. The oil will
not
require hydrogenation, stated the two firms, that have combined their
technologies on seed development to create the product.

Last year US firms Dow AgroSciences, Bunge and DuPont all launched
their
various brands of zero or low trans fat oils, joining ADM's NovoLipid.
-----

Thanks
Davide
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