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NoOption5L@aol.com
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 32
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 Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:03 am Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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TC wrote:
| Quote: | Show me one study that compared grains to meats head to head. If this
study was to be done, one would see that grains are a poor food for
humans.
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Here you go.
Ounce for ounce comparing whole wheat bread vs ground beef, chicken,
sirloin steak and ham:
W/W beats:
3 of the 4 in Thamin
2 of 4 in Riboflavin
0 of 4 in Niacin (blow out for meat)
0 of 4 in B6 (close 4th though)
4 of 4 in Folate (easy wins)
Tie in Vitamin C (none of the five have any significant amounts)
Tied 2 lost to 2 in Vitamin A
3 out of 4 in Iron
1 of 4 in Zinc (very close to taking 3rd place)
0 of 4 in Potassium - (placed very close to 3rd and 4th place
finishers)
4 of 4 in Calcium (easy wins)
3 of 4 Phosphorus (tied for first)
4 of 4 in Magnesium (whooped them all)
Not too shabby for such an underachiever, huh? And this was a 4
against 1, or at least 3 against 1 (ground beef and steak both being
cow) match. Adding oatmeal, quinoa, rye, millet or barley I'm sure
would have given grains an even better showing.
Now stop talking silly and give grains their due.
You wouldn't happen to be a butcher/work for the meat industry, would
you?
Patrick |
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GMCarter
medicine forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:24 am Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 01:12:48 GMT, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu>
wrote:
snip
| Quote: |
But studies on the whole seem to show that reducing homocysteine worsens
rather than improves risk of heart disease and stroke.
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What studies? I understood the situation was to the contrary. Elevated
homocysteine is associated with CHD, albeit weakly.
What data are you referring to?
George M. Carter
****
Am Heart J. 2006 Feb;151(2):282-7. Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Homocysteine-lowering trials for prevention of cardiovascular
events: a review of the design and power of the large randomized
trials.
B-Vitamin Treatment Trialists' Collaboration.
BACKGROUND: Dietary supplementation with folic acid and vitamin
B12 lowers blood homocysteine concentrations by about 25% to 30% in
populations without routine folic acid fortification of food and by
about 10% to 15% in populations with such fortification. In
observational studies, 25% lower homocysteine has been associated with
about 10% less coronary heart disease (CHD) and about 20% less stroke.
METHODS: We reviewed the design and statistical power of 12 randomized
trials assessing the effects of lowering homocysteine with B-vitamin
supplements on risk of cardiovascular disease. RESULTS: Seven of these
trials are being conducted in populations without fortification (5
involving participants with prior CHD and 2 with prior stroke) and 5
in populations with fortification (2 with prior CHD, 2 with renal
disease, and 1 with prior stroke). These trials may not involve
sufficient number of vascular events or last long enough to have a
good chance on their own to detect reliably plausible effects of
homocysteine lowering on cardiovascular risk. But, taken together,
these 12 trials involve about 52,000 participants: 32,000 with prior
vascular disease in unfortified populations and 14,000 with vascular
disease and 6000 with renal disease in fortified populations. Hence, a
combined analysis of these trials should have adequate power to
determine whether lowering homocysteine reduces the risk of
cardiovascular events within just a few years. CONCLUSION: The
strength of association of homocysteine with risk of cardiovascular
disease may be weaker than had previously been believed. Extending the
duration of treatment in these trials would allow any effects
associated with prolonged differences in homocysteine concentrations
to emerge. Establishing a prospective meta-analysis of the ongoing
trials of homocysteine lowering should ensure that reliable
information emerges about the effects of such interventions on
cardiovascular disease outcomes.
****
Mayo Clin Proc. 2006 Feb;81(2):177-82. Related Articles,
Links
Association of plasma homocysteine with coronary artery
calcification in different categories of coronary heart disease risk.
Kullo IJ, Li G, Bielak LF, Bailey KR, Sheedy PF 2nd, Peyser PA,
Turner ST, Kardia SL.
Division of Cardiovascular Diseases, Mayo Clinic College of
Medicine, 200 First St SW, Rochester, MN 55905, USA.
kullo.iftikhar@mayo.edu
OBJECTIVE: To Investigate the association of plasma homocystelne
with coronary artery calcification (CAC) in strata based on 10-year
risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) in a cohort enriched in persons
with hypertension. PARTICIPANTS AND METHODS: Fasting plasma
homocystelne was measured by liquid chromatography electrospray tandem
mass spectrometry. Coronary artery calcification was measured
noninvasively by electron beam computed tomography and CAC score
calculated using the method of Agatston et al. The 10-year CHD risk
was calculated based on the Framingham risk score. The association of
homocysteine with log-transformed CAC score was assessed in the pooled
sample and within each risk stratum by linear regression after
adjustment for conventional risk factors. RESULTS: In the 1071
participants studied, homocysteine was associated with CAC quantity (P
= .01) after adjustment for CHD risk factors (age, male sex, total and
high-density lipoproteln cholesterol, diabetes, history of smoking,
body mass Index, and systolic blood pressure), serum creatinine, and
statin and hypertension medication use. When the association was
assessed in strata based on 10-year CHD risk, homocysteine was
significantly (P = .003) associated with CAC quantity in participants
at Intermediate 10-year risk of CHD (6%-20%) independent of other risk
factors but not in those at lower risk or higher risk. CONCLUSION:
Plasma homocysteine is associated with quantity of CAC Independent of
CHD risk factors. When studied in categories of 10-year CHD risk, the
association was significant in participants at intermediate risk but
not in those at low or high risk. Plasma homocysteine levels may have
clinical utility as a marker of CHD risk in such individuals.
****
Atherosclerosis. 2006 Jun 13; [Epub ahead of print] Links
Homocysteine and coronary heart disease risk in the PRIME study.
Troughton JA, Woodside JV, Young IS, Arveiler D, Amouyel P,
Ferrieres J, Ducimetiere P, Patterson CC, Kee F, Yarnell JW, Evans A;
on behalf of the PRIME Study Group.
Faculty of Medicine, Queen's University Belfast, Belfast, Northern
Ireland, UK.
INTRODUCTION: Despite recent meta-analyses suggesting that
homocysteine is an independent predictor of coronary heart disease
(CHD), there is debate regarding whether elevated homocysteine may be
deleterious only in the presence of other risk factors, with which it
acts synergistically to exert a multiplicative effect on CHD risk,
emerging only as a CHD predictor in patients with pre-existing risk
factors. The Prospective Epidemiological Study of Myocardial
Infarction (PRIME) Study is a multicentre prospective study of 10593
men from France and Northern Ireland, investigating cardiovascular
risk factors. We investigated: (1) whether higher homocysteine is
associated with increased CHD risk in the PRIME case-control cohort;
(2) whether homocysteine interacts synergistically with pre-existing
CHD risk factors. METHODS: Homocysteine was measured in 323
participants who had developed CHD at 5-year follow-up and in 638
matched controls. RESULTS: There was no significant difference in
homocysteine between cases and controls (p=0.1 . Homocysteine was
significantly higher in current smokers (geometric mean mumol/l
(interquartile range mumol/l) 9.45 (7.43, 11.75)) compared with
non-smokers (8.90 (7.32, 10.70); p=0.007). There was a significant
interaction between homocysteine, smoking and CHD risk (chi(2)=10.29,
d.f.=2, p=0.006). CONCLUSIONS: These findings suggest that elevated
homocysteine is significantly associated with CHD risk in current
smokers.
PMID: 16774755 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] |
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Ron Peterson
medicine forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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Jim Chinnis wrote:
| Quote: | "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
Ron Peterson wrote:
What proteins and fats are only available from animal sourced foods?
The following nutrients are only available in adequate amounts and/or
in useable forms from animal sourced foods:
...
linolenic acid
Flax seed, canola oil, purslane, many nuts, etc. There's very little in
animal products.
|
TC would have a good point if he had said omega-3 fatty acids EPA and
DHA which are found in fish. Alpha linolenic acid (ALA) does confer
some of the benefits of EPA and DHA because the body can convert some
of ALA to those in limited amounts.
DHA is generally not available in appreciable quantities in most plant
based human foods. There is a microalgae that does produce DHA and one
company (Martek) is using that process to produce DHA as a food
supplement for baby formula.
--
Ron |
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Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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"Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in part:
| Quote: |
Jim Chinnis wrote:
"TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
Ron Peterson wrote:
What proteins and fats are only available from animal sourced foods?
The following nutrients are only available in adequate amounts and/or
in useable forms from animal sourced foods:
...
linolenic acid
Flax seed, canola oil, purslane, many nuts, etc. There's very little in
animal products.
TC would have a good point if he had said omega-3 fatty acids EPA and
DHA which are found in fish. Alpha linolenic acid (ALA) does confer
some of the benefits of EPA and DHA because the body can convert some
of ALA to those in limited amounts.
DHA is generally not available in appreciable quantities in most plant
based human foods. There is a microalgae that does produce DHA and one
company (Martek) is using that process to produce DHA as a food
supplement for baby formula.
|
Too bad for his argument that TC mainly named nutrients better found in
veggies.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu |
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TC
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 1814
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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Jim Chinnis wrote:
| Quote: | "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
Ron Peterson wrote:
TC wrote:
You actually have a valid point. But don't tell me that grains are the
panacea viv-a-vis human health, because they are a poor human food
choice. And there is no way to improve grains to where they will
prevent the human race from future starvation or malnourishment leading
to serious chronic disease, unless you find a way to create grain that
contains the essential vitamins, proteins and fats that are only
available from animal sourced foods.
What proteins and fats are only available from animal sourced foods?
--
Ron
The following nutrients are only available in adequate amounts and/or
in useable forms from animal sourced foods:
Vitamins:
Vitamin B-12
B-12 is the only vitamin not available in plant sources.
Vitamin B-6
Vitamin D
|
The last two are available but not in large amounts. Deficiencies will
occur eventually on a vegetarian diet.
| Quote: |
Amino Acids (Proteins):
Tryptophan
Methionine
Lysine
Isoleucine
Threonine
All amino acids are available and in highly usable forms in balanced
plant-based meals.
|
Not in optimal amounts.
| Quote: |
Minerals:
Calcium
ferritin
zinc
Nonsense.
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Sorry, not nonsense.
| Quote: |
Fatty acids (fats):
linoleic acid
Linoleic acid is the main constituent of most vegetable oils, for crying out
loud.
linolenic acid
Flax seed, canola oil, purslane, many nuts, etc. There's very little in
animal products.
|
correction:
eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), belongs to
a group of fatty acids called omega-3 fatty acids. EPA and DHA are
found primarily in fish
| Quote: |
People restricting animal sourced foods in their diets will run the
real risk of deficiencies in these nutrients. And the vast majority of
vegans will be unable to get enough of these nutrients for optimal
health regardless of their efforts to do so.
Grains are poor sources of all of these nutrients or contains none at
all. Most grains, and especially wheat, contain zero vitamin C.
And grains may contain these anti-nutrients which may cause health
problems:
And benefits.
Phytates
oxalates
alpha-amylase inhitors
protease inhibitors
alkylrescorcinols
Not to mentions the excessive amounts of carbohydrates which cause all
kinds of health problems like obesity, diabetes, etc. And gluten which
is the cause of most chronic GI conditions like Crohn's disease,
colitis, IBS, etc.
There really isn't anything in grains that we can't get in greater
amounts or of better quality and more useable forms from other more
nutrient-dense foods like meats and fresh produce.
Grains are completely superfluous to our diet and our health. And that
includes whole grain as well.
TC
The above contains only a dash of truth in what is overall an ignorant rant.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
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It is a lot closer to the truth than many vegetarians want to admit.
Animal sourced foods are essential for humans to get the optimal
amounts of all of these nutrients. And by optimal I mean enough to
supply all our bodies health needs. I am not just talking about the
minimum required to avoid overt signs of deficiency.
TC |
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Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in part:
| Quote: | On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 01:12:48 GMT, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
wrote:
snip
But studies on the whole seem to show that reducing homocysteine worsens
rather than improves risk of heart disease and stroke.
What studies? I understood the situation was to the contrary. Elevated
homocysteine is associated with CHD, albeit weakly.
What data are you referring to?
|
Yes, elevated homocysteine is associated with CHD. But randomized studies
that have treated the high homocysteine have found that the treatment group
has higher rates of heart attack, not lower.
The *causal* link of homocysteine has not been shown and it is even possible
that it confers some protection. It's also possible that the treatments
employed themselves have deleterious effects that offset a benefit of
homocysteine reduction.
I'll try to find the references later. Or, try Pubmed with limits set to
randomized trial.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu |
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Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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"TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
| Quote: | It is a lot closer to the truth than many vegetarians want to admit.
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Wrong is wrong.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu |
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outsor@citynet.net
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 569
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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"A better question than TC's is: Name two essential
nutrients that are not found in a plant-based diet.
Here, I'll help TC get started: vitamin B-12. Okay
TC, name the second nutrient."
When indians started coming to n. america they started showing increased
levels of vit b12 deficiencies and its symptoms. Upon investigation it
was found the regulation of how many animal parts per million were allowed
in grain and similar products was higher in india, which was the source of
the vit b12 for them. Of course a simple vitamin pill did the trick in
its place. |
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gwcherryHatesGreenEggsAnd
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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A better question than TC's is: Name two essential
nutrients that are not found in a plant-based diet.
Here, I'll help TC get started: vitamin B-12. Okay
TC, name the second nutrient.
George W. Cherry |
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gwcherryHatesGreenEggsAnd
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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How about this question: Name N essential or
healthy nutrients that are not found in meat.
George |
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gwcherryHatesGreenEggsAnd
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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A better question than TC's is: Name two essential
nutrients that are not found in a plant-based diet.
Here, I'll help TC get started: vitamin B-12. Okay
TC, name the second nutrient.
George W. Cherry |
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TC
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 1814
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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George Cherry wrote:
| Quote: | How about this question: Name N essential or
healthy nutrients that are not found in meat.
George
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Good one. Very good one.
And plants may contain some of these nutrients but rarely in amounts
sufficent for optimal health or in forms that are useable in optimal
amounts.
TC |
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Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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"TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
| Quote: |
George Cherry wrote:
How about this question: Name N essential or
healthy nutrients that are not found in meat.
George
Good one. Very good one.
And plants may contain some of these nutrients but rarely in amounts
sufficent for optimal health or in forms that are useable in optimal
amounts.
TC
|
I thought this was a science group. Apparently I was mistaken. It more
resembles a religious group of some mixed-up sort.
There are lots of healthy nutrients found only in plant sources to any
useful degree. Both meats and plant-derived foods provide healthy nutrients
and healthy non-nutrients, for that matter.
Go have a some coffee, tea, or wine with that lamb chop, and a bit of dark
chocolate afterwards.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu |
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NoOption5L@aol.com
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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TC wrote:
| Quote: | You actually have a valid point. But don't tell me that grains are the
panacea viv-a-vis human health, because they are a poor human food
choice. And there is no way to improve grains to where they will
prevent the human race from future starvation or malnourishment leading
to serious chronic disease, unless you find a way to create grain that
contains the essential vitamins, proteins and fats that are only
available from animal sourced foods.
What proteins and fats are only available from animal sourced foods?
The following nutrients are only available in adequate amounts and/or
in useable forms from animal sourced foods:
Vitamins:
Vitamin B-12
B-12 is the only vitamin not available in plant sources.
Vitamin B-6
Vitamin D
The last two are available but not in large amounts. Deficiencies will
occur eventually on a vegetarian diet.
|
Vitamin D is available with a few minutes on sunshine, so that's a moot
point.
As for B6, you can survive for months, maybe years, without any so an
occasional egg or slice meat is all that's needed.
| Quote: | Amino Acids (Proteins):
Tryptophan
Methionine
Lysine
Isoleucine
Threonine
All amino acids are available and in highly usable forms in balanced
plant-based meals.
Not in optimal amounts.
|
To get an "optimal" mix of amino acids, all you have to do is eat a
varied diet of grains, beans, nuts/seeds throughout the day. Any milk,
yogurt, meat or eggs you happen to consume is just icing on the cake.
| Quote: | Minerals:
Calcium
ferritin
zinc
Nonsense.
Sorry, not nonsense.
|
Dispite what you think, your meat diet and Zone Diet book are not the
Holy Grails of nutrition. You're best served by eating a wide variety
of quaility foods, which includes some whole grains and meat/dairy.
And diet will only get you halfway to good health. The other half of
good health is supplied by getting plenty of excercise. Again, just
like diet, your exercise must come from a variety of sources --
running, walking, yoga, lifting weights, stretching and just staying
active/off your ass.
So the buzzword for optimum health should be "variety".
Patrick |
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TC
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 1814
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject:
Re: the business of carbs or is it the conspiracy or carbs?
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NoOptio...@aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | TC wrote:
You actually have a valid point. But don't tell me that grains are the
panacea viv-a-vis human health, because they are a poor human food
choice. And there is no way to improve grains to where they will
prevent the human race from future starvation or malnourishment leading
to serious chronic disease, unless you find a way to create grain that
contains the essential vitamins, proteins and fats that are only
available from animal sourced foods.
What proteins and fats are only available from animal sourced foods?
The following nutrients are only available in adequate amounts and/or
in useable forms from animal sourced foods:
Vitamins:
Vitamin B-12
B-12 is the only vitamin not available in plant sources.
Vitamin B-6
Vitamin D
The last two are available but not in large amounts. Deficiencies will
occur eventually on a vegetarian diet.
Vitamin D is available with a few minutes on sunshine, so that's a moot
point.
|
Sigh.......here we go again........
YOU CAN'T GET ENOUGH VITAMIN D FROM SUNSHINE ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!
Even to stave off deficiency symptoms, you cannot get enough D from
sunshine. And that is far far short of the amounts needed for optimal
health.
| Quote: |
As for B6, you can survive for months, maybe years, without any so an
occasional egg or slice meat is all that's needed.
|
You may survive and your kids may survive for months, maybe years, but
I would rather I and my kids *thrive* than merely *survive* during
those months and/or years.
| Quote: |
Amino Acids (Proteins):
Tryptophan
Methionine
Lysine
Isoleucine
Threonine
All amino acids are available and in highly usable forms in balanced
plant-based meals.
Not in optimal amounts.
To get an "optimal" mix of amino acids, all you have to do is eat a
varied diet of grains, beans, nuts/seeds throughout the day. Any milk,
yogurt, meat or eggs you happen to consume is just icing on the cake.
|
That is not optimal, it is bare survival. Again, I want to thrive not
just survive.
| Quote: |
Minerals:
Calcium
ferritin
zinc
Nonsense.
Sorry, not nonsense.
Dispite what you think, your meat diet and Zone Diet book are not the
Holy Grails of nutrition. You're best served by eating a wide variety
of quaility foods, which includes some whole grains and meat/dairy.
|
Many sub-groups of peoples have thrived on some seemingly restricted
long term diets, all having animal sourced foods in common. There is no
group that has thrived on vegetarian diets.
The wide variety of food concept is just another way to market food. It
has little to do with health. And more often the foods touted are those
sold by larger corporations like grains, fruits, soy, etc.
| Quote: |
And diet will only get you halfway to good health. The other half of
good health is supplied by getting plenty of excercise. Again, just
like diet, your exercise must come from a variety of sources --
running, walking, yoga, lifting weights, stretching and just staying
active/off your ass.
|
Not necessarily plenty of exercise but moderate exercise. Many studies
have shown that moderate exercise is as useful as heavy exercise, and
less damaging to the body. You have to keep moving but you don't have
to move a mountain every day.
| Quote: |
So the buzzword for optimum health should be "variety".
Patrick
|
I disagree. Inuits and Eskimos were very very healthy on a very
restricted diet, food variety wise. Mostly fish, seals and very few
plant-sourced foods. The Masai ate mostly animal sourced foods centered
around their cattle herd and they were extremely healthy.
Variety is just a marketting scam to sell the new foods that are not
necessarily natural for us to have available year round.
TC |
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