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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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 Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:05 am Post subject:
Fish Oil Processing
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I have read numerous reports and have essentially been convinced of the
great benefits of fish oil.
HOWEVER,
I realize that the omega 3's are highly unstable polyunsaturated oils.
This means that they oxidize very easily/quickly. Since the
pharmaceutical grades use either molecular distillation or
deoderization, this exposes the oil to temps exceeding 160-180 degrees
centigrade. Would this not oxidize the oil making it rancid nearly
instantly?
With respect to actual fish, wouldn't cooking fish at oven temperatures
also oxidize and make the "healthy" omega 3's rancid right in the fish?
Any knowledge or information is greatly appreciated.
Mike |
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monty1945@lycos.com
medicine forum addict
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:21 am Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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The studies showing "benefits" of fish oil are conducted by people who
don't understand "inflammation" at the molecular level. They are also
culturally conditioned, because if Americans ate a high omega 3 diet
(the way they do omega 6s), there would most likely be in even worse
health. If you want to understand this, read though the essays at:
http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/ |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
| Quote: | The studies showing "benefits" of fish oil are conducted by people who
don't understand "inflammation" at the molecular level. They are also
culturally conditioned, because if Americans ate a high omega 3 diet
(the way they do omega 6s), there would most likely be in even worse
health. If you want to understand this, read though the essays at:
http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/
---------- |
Thanks for your message and input. I did take a look at the forum and
read the essay -"Fish Oil Quotes You Might Want To Read", and wasn't
entirely convinced. Are there any other essays in that forum that may
be of interest?
Is your position entirely that fish oil is not healthy (1 teaspoon or
less/day) and should be avoided?
What about cooked fish? Would this also be considered a harmful
polyunsat? |
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monty1945@lycos.com
medicine forum addict
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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It varies - steaming salmon oxidizes the cholesterol to a great degree,
for example. You can do your own experiment if you are still not
convinced: get a bunch of mice or rats and feed half 30% canola and
fish oil and the other half 30% fresh coconut oil (no "essential fatty
acids") and see which group lives longer.
The other essays talk about how "inflammation" has been misunderstood
and that if you look at it at the molecular level, fish oil omega 3s
are the worst. It took me a few years before this all made sense to
me, and I was fairly well-read on these issues (and I also teach the
history of science at the university level), so all I can say is if you
keep your mind open and think about what is being claimed, you will
eventually realize that it does not "add up" at all, but what does
appear to be the case is how dangerous the dietary polyunsaturated
fatty acids can be, especially in certain forms (oils and meat cooked
while exposed to air). |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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Wow, thanks again for more insight. So I take it you don't take fish
oil supplements?  Do you eat fish...if so, how do you prepare it? I
didn't know that fish had much cholesterol to start with, so steaming
would oxidize it more since it's more exposed to air? I suppose baking
would be better?
I think your proposed experiment is irrelevant. Are not a small amount
of polyunsat's "essential" such as the omega 3 and 6? Does the body
not require them in small amounts since they cannot be made by the
body? The experiment compares saturated vs poly only....surely
saturated are required in the diet MUCH more than poly...probably 50%
of the fat calories vs less than 7% of the fat cals for polys.
I am definitely open minded and this is why I am exploring this further
and asking questions, researching, etc. as I want to know whether it's
beneficial to keep buying high quality fish oil or whether I am
compromising my health and wallet.
Are you also saying that ALL dietary polys are harmful? That is fish
and nuts/seeds? Are there not polys in many many whole foods?
Further insight is greatly appreciated.
monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
| Quote: | It varies - steaming salmon oxidizes the cholesterol to a great degree,
for example. You can do your own experiment if you are still not
convinced: get a bunch of mice or rats and feed half 30% canola and
fish oil and the other half 30% fresh coconut oil (no "essential fatty
acids") and see which group lives longer.
The other essays talk about how "inflammation" has been misunderstood
and that if you look at it at the molecular level, fish oil omega 3s
are the worst. It took me a few years before this all made sense to
me, and I was fairly well-read on these issues (and I also teach the
history of science at the university level), so all I can say is if you
keep your mind open and think about what is being claimed, you will
eventually realize that it does not "add up" at all, but what does
appear to be the case is how dangerous the dietary polyunsaturated
fatty acids can be, especially in certain forms (oils and meat cooked
while exposed to air). |
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Bob
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:05 am Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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The important components of fish oil are EPA and DHA. That's where all
the benefits are, not omega 3. That's why fish oil is superior in every
study in every way compared to flaxseed oil, even though both are omega
3. |
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monty1945@lycos.com
medicine forum addict
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:32 am Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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If you read through the essays you will see that the original
experiment, done in 1930 and still cited as the establishing study, was
in fact done on rats and directly refuted in 1948. In 1948, rats were
fed a totally NO FAT diet and lived just fine. It was determined that
in 1930 some rats were deficient in B vitamins which were not known
yet. This is why I told you to read the essays; otherwise I have to
write the same things over and over again. You can also do a google
search for "ray peat" newsletter and read some of his free essays,
which are similar in some ways (I'm more interested in exactly what is
going on at the molecular level). EPA and DHA have no benefits and
only can do harm unless you are overloaded with AA, and then there are
apparent short-term benefits (but likely long term-damage). Again, the
evidence is cited in the essays on the web site. |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
| Quote: | If you read through the essays you will see that the original
experiment, done in 1930 and still cited as the establishing study, was
in fact done on rats and directly refuted in 1948. In 1948, rats were
fed a totally NO FAT diet and lived just fine. It was determined that
in 1930 some rats were deficient in B vitamins which were not known
yet. This is why I told you to read the essays; otherwise I have to
write the same things over and over again. You can also do a google
search for "ray peat" newsletter and read some of his free essays,
which are similar in some ways (I'm more interested in exactly what is
going on at the molecular level). EPA and DHA have no benefits and
only can do harm unless you are overloaded with AA, and then there are
apparent short-term benefits (but likely long term-damage). Again, the
evidence is cited in the essays on the web site.
|
Thank you, I will definitely read through the essays. I have great The
Great Fish Oil Experiment by Ray Peak and thought it was very weak. I
quite surprised in hearing you say that EPA and DHA have no benefits
when they have been labelled as "essential". I'm assuming you're a
proponent of the low fat diet then? This is quite interesting as I am
the exact opposite. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the fish
oil supplement. It makes me feel great, but I was originally concered
about the rancidity in the bottle and/or body |
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mattlb@angelfire.com
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca wrote:
| Quote: | monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
If you read through the essays you will see that the original
experiment, done in 1930 and still cited as the establishing study, was
in fact done on rats and directly refuted in 1948. In 1948, rats were
fed a totally NO FAT diet and lived just fine. It was determined that
in 1930 some rats were deficient in B vitamins which were not known
yet. This is why I told you to read the essays; otherwise I have to
write the same things over and over again. You can also do a google
search for "ray peat" newsletter and read some of his free essays,
which are similar in some ways (I'm more interested in exactly what is
going on at the molecular level). EPA and DHA have no benefits and
only can do harm unless you are overloaded with AA, and then there are
apparent short-term benefits (but likely long term-damage). Again, the
evidence is cited in the essays on the web site.
Thank you, I will definitely read through the essays. I have great The
Great Fish Oil Experiment by Ray Peak and thought it was very weak.
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Then you're probably already more clued up than monty1945 (formerly
montygram, monty and Nick if you wanted to get a flavour of his
opinions by doing a search of this group).
| Quote: | quite surprised in hearing you say that EPA and DHA have no benefits
when they have been labelled as "essential".
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He has his own definition of essential (basically equating to "makes
you live longer and you should quickly die without it") and he thinks
they don't match up to it. He also has the standard zealout lack of
perspective, conflating the claim that certain PUFA are essential in
small amounts with the claim that you should therefore eats lots of
them.
| Quote: | I'm assuming you're a
proponent of the low fat diet then?
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He's a proponent of a high coconut oil, no PUFA diet. You'll probabaly
notice in his essays that he's quick to use animals models to badmouth
EFA, but disregards animal models that don't agree with his view - in
particular the use of coconut oil to induce atherosclerosis.
MattLB |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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| Quote: | Then you're probably already more clued up than monty1945 (formerly
montygram, monty and Nick if you wanted to get a flavour of his
opinions by doing a search of this group)
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Hey thanks for the heads up. Might not be a bad idea.
| Quote: | He's a proponent of a high coconut oil, no PUFA diet. You'll probabaly
notice in his essays that he's quick to use animals models to badmouth
EFA, but disregards animal models that don't agree with his view - in
particular the use of coconut oil to induce atherosclerosis.
MattLB
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Interesting, I too am a proponent of a high fat diet (including 1/2 the
fat from saturated) and think coconut oil is amazing...I eat and cook
with it all the time. I know he's right on the mark that polyun's are
horrible in general (vegetable oils, etc) but i'm just trying to get to
the bottom of the fish oil debate and whether this concentrated oil is
actually healthy or harmful. |
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italiangm
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca wrote:
| Quote: | Thank you, I will definitely read through the essays.
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While you're at it, be sure to validate statements made in the essays
against the cited documents. "monty" has a habit of leaving information
out. Example:
http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309039940/html contains the oft referred
to "Diet and Health: Implications for Reducing Chronic Disease Risk
(1989)".
At
http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/fishoilquotesyoushouldread.msnw
"monty" claims "They also note that the use of the native Greenlander
diet as an example of the supposed benefits of fish oil need to be
considered more carefully, since these people '...usually die before
middle age.' " It's clear monty attempts to conflate fish oil use with
death "before middle age"
However, the full quote on page 192 says: "Greenland Eskimos have been
cited as an example of a population with a high intake of fats and oils
from marine sources and very low rates of CHD (Bang and Dyerberg,
1980), but the epidemiologic data are insufficient to confirm this
assertion. In fact, the risk of CHD is unknown in this small
population, whose members live under harsh conditions and usually die
before middle age."
As you can see, "harsh conditions" could certainly be the cause of such
deaths. You should also keep in mind the age of these documents. (1980,
1989) |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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| Quote: | As you can see, "harsh conditions" could certainly be the cause of such
deaths. You should also keep in mind the age of these documents. (1980,
1989)
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I've read up on the eskimoes and primarly Steffanson's
explorations/studies. I have concluded that we can't compare
concentrated processed bottled fish oil with actually eating raw or
boiled fish.
The oxdization of concentrated pharmaceutical grade fish (even though
if done in a vaccuum) concerns me given the heat they use to either
deoderize or molecularly distill it.
It may be that this supplement really is a double edged sword which is
why i'm keeping an open mind that it may actually hinder health more
than help it. |
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mattlb@angelfire.com
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca wrote:
| Quote: | As you can see, "harsh conditions" could certainly be the cause of such
deaths. You should also keep in mind the age of these documents. (1980,
1989)
I've read up on the eskimoes and primarly Steffanson's
explorations/studies. I have concluded that we can't compare
concentrated processed bottled fish oil with actually eating raw or
boiled fish.
The oxdization of concentrated pharmaceutical grade fish (even though
if done in a vaccuum) concerns me given the heat they use to either
deoderize or molecularly distill it.
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The heat required for the distillation would definitely be a problem in
the presence of oxygen, but in a light-free vacuum there's nothing to
start the peroxidation chain reaction.
It's similar to the way that incineration of toxic chemicals is safe as
it just thermally decomposes them, whereas setting fire to them would
be a major health hazard creating a cocktail of oxidised organic
molecules.
If vitamin E is added to the fish oil capsules (as it sometimes is)
them the slow diffusion of oxygen into the interior over time shouldn't
be a major issue either. If you leave your capsules sitting in the sun
things are different, obviously.
MattLB
MattLB |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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| Quote: | If vitamin E is added to the fish oil capsules (as it sometimes is)
them the slow diffusion of oxygen into the interior over time shouldn't
be a major issue either. If you leave your capsules sitting in the sun
things are different, obviously.
MattLB
MattLB
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Excellent informative post. Thank you. So even with some negative
studies/papers, in your opinion, is fish oil beneficial? Could it
potentially oxidize to a significant degree in our own body? |
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Bob
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
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