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JMW
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 56
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 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:14 am Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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"italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | JMW wrote:
That proves nothing, and either your know that, or you're a moron.
Do you really think resorting to ad hominems is going to improve your
stature, accuracy, or authenticity?
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Well, I guess they mean nothing at all when you fail to quote my
comment as to your dishonest and/or ignorant representation of
reality.
| Quote: | It's the sign of a weak (and obviously closed) mind.
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It was a comment on a weak (and obviously closed) mind that thinks it
"owns the truth": your mind.
| Quote: | Surely you could find a cite more current than 1992... The etiology
and sequelae of type 2 diabetes has come a long way since then. More
has been discovered in the last three years than in the previous three
decades (like the original cite used).
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See my response to your other post, specifically quoting the
conclusion of the study *you* quoted. And remember that Breakstone
cottage cheese was the *only* food *you* could cite containing any
substantial amount of whey. And note that cottage cheese was as good
as, or better than, any of the other proteins at reducing plasma
glucose levels in Type 2 diabetics. And note that the researchers
found it to be "a patient empowering way of reducing the hyperglycemia
present in people with type 2 diabetes mellitus, independent of the
use of pharmaceutical agents."
Or maybe you think Type 2 diabetics *enjoy* taking Metformin?
Dumbass. |
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italiangm
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:47 am Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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JMW wrote:
| Quote: | Uh-huh. And added protein with reduced carbohydrate was found to be
effective at reducing plasma glucose levels. And cottage cheese, in
combination with glucose, was as good as, or better than, any of the
other proteins (combined with glucose) at doing that. [See Figure 3
for 5-hour levels] And what was the conclusion of that study?
"From these data we conclude that increasing the protein content of
the diet at the expense of carbohydrate can reduce the 24-hour
integrated plasma glucose concentration, at least over a 5-week period
of time. The reduction was similar to that of oral agents and renal
function was not affected significantly. Thus, increasing the protein
content of the diet with a corresponding decrease in the carbohydrate
content potentially is a patient empowering way of reducing the
hyperglycemia present in people with type 2 diabetes mellitus,
independent of the use of pharmaceutical agents."
And, once again, cottage cheese was one of the most effective proteins
for that purpose. Did you miss that part? Should I repeat it one
more time?
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And it did so with 3 times more insulin.
Let me repeat: Meals with a whey component reduce glucose by
stimulating excess insulin. Chronic high insulin release is implicated
in the development of insulin resistance, excess adiposity, metabolic
syndrome, and beta cell exhaustion.. |
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italiangm
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:54 am Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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JMW wrote:
You can't possibly believe comments like that will increase your
credibility.
Oh wait. You probably do. |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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italiangm wrote:
| Quote: | Let me repeat: Meals with a whey component reduce glucose by
stimulating excess insulin. Chronic high insulin release is implicated
in the development of insulin resistance, excess adiposity, metabolic
syndrome, and beta cell exhaustion..
|
Dude, if you have a meal with whey and the meal contains much fat,
wouldn't that blunt the insulin response? I mean, we're not talking
just whey and water here. So are you saying that my shakes which are
whey, water, coconut oil, coconut milk, creamed coconut, macadamia nut
butter, 2 raw eggs, 2 tablespoons kefir, and 1/2 cup low glycemic mixed
berries are going to reduce glucose by stimulating excess insulin?
Sorry, I kind of jumped in and might have missed something. |
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JMW
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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"italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
JMW wrote:
Uh-huh. And added protein with reduced carbohydrate was found to be
effective at reducing plasma glucose levels. And cottage cheese, in
combination with glucose, was as good as, or better than, any of the
other proteins (combined with glucose) at doing that. [See Figure 3
for 5-hour levels] And what was the conclusion of that study?
"From these data we conclude that increasing the protein content of
the diet at the expense of carbohydrate can reduce the 24-hour
integrated plasma glucose concentration, at least over a 5-week period
of time. The reduction was similar to that of oral agents and renal
function was not affected significantly. Thus, increasing the protein
content of the diet with a corresponding decrease in the carbohydrate
content potentially is a patient empowering way of reducing the
hyperglycemia present in people with type 2 diabetes mellitus,
independent of the use of pharmaceutical agents."
And, once again, cottage cheese was one of the most effective proteins
for that purpose. Did you miss that part? Should I repeat it one
more time?
And it did so with 3 times more insulin.
Let me repeat: Meals with a whey component reduce glucose by
stimulating excess insulin. Chronic high insulin release is implicated
in the development of insulin resistance, excess adiposity, metabolic
syndrome, and beta cell exhaustion..
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How can the insulin released be "excess" if it normalized plasma
glucose? Insulin is not evil.
And what makes you think it exhausts the beta cells? Are you aware
that the impairment of glucose-induced insulin release by beta cells
in Type 2 diabetes does not apply to amino-acid-induced insulin
release? |
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JMW
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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"italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | JMW wrote:
Dumbass.
You can't possibly believe comments like that will increase your
credibility.
Oh wait. You probably do.
|
I've seen your indignant whiny-baby act in other newsgroups. It
really won't work well in MFW. |
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italiangm
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca wrote:
| Quote: | italiangm wrote:
Let me repeat: Meals with a whey component reduce glucose by
stimulating excess insulin. Chronic high insulin release is implicated
in the development of insulin resistance, excess adiposity, metabolic
syndrome, and beta cell exhaustion..
Dude, if you have a meal with whey and the meal contains much fat,
wouldn't that blunt the insulin response? I mean, we're not talking
just whey and water here. So are you saying that my shakes which are
whey, water, coconut oil, coconut milk, creamed coconut, macadamia nut
butter, 2 raw eggs, 2 tablespoons kefir, and 1/2 cup low glycemic mixed
berries are going to reduce glucose by stimulating excess insulin?
Sorry, I kind of jumped in and might have missed something.
|
No problem. If the whey is a small percentage compared to the rest of
the meal and sugars are minimal, it shouldn't be a problem. However,
mixed meals don't seem to blunt the speed at which whey is broken down,
nor do they blunt the insulin response to the whey component. For
reasons that are not completely clear, whey triggers an unexpectedly
high insulin response compared to other proteins.
The average schmoe isn't consuming whey like you or like those who are
bodybuilding. Joe Average often marches to a low carb drummer, seeking
add'l protein sources. Unfortunately, they buy prepackaged foods or
supplement with whey in ways that allow more sugars or starches than
are healthy. Chronic use is likely to lead to future health problems,
especially in those who have 'thrifty' genes or have a genetic
predisposition to impaired carb/glucose metabolism. |
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italiangm
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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JMW wrote:
| Quote: | I've seen your indignant whiny-baby act in other newsgroups. It
really won't work well in MFW.
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*yawn* |
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italiangm
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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JMW wrote:
| Quote: | How can the insulin released be "excess" if it normalized plasma
glucose?
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Folks with impaired glucose/carb metabolism don't respond the same way
to insulin as normoglycemic folk do.
| Quote: | Insulin is not evil.
|
Tell that to someone with insulin resistance and is taking insulin
sensitizers to overcome it.
| Quote: | And what makes you think it exhausts the beta cells? Are you aware
that the impairment of glucose-induced insulin release by beta cells
in Type 2 diabetes does not apply to amino-acid-induced insulin
release?
|
Excess insulin is excess insulin. It leads to more insulin resistance
and adiposity in folks who are predisposed to the arc of metabolic
problems that leads to and includes type 2 diabetes. |
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Curt James
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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JMWhat-a-surprise! <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
JMW wrote:
Dumbass.
You can't possibly believe comments like that will increase your
credibility.
Oh wait. You probably do.
I've seen
|
Spying on them in other newsgroups? Why does that not come as a
surprise? You've never truly participated in rec.motorcycles.harley or
rec.arts.bodyart, but you made forays to both of those ngs - which I
do frequent - in failed attempts to solicit negative responses re
yours truly. Did you get what you were looking for? Uh huh.
You've seen. Why, I'll just bet you have. Peeking in their window
probably wouldn't be beyond you. Just a guess.
| Quote: | your indignant whiny-baby act in other newsgroups.
|
So sayeth the authority on indignant whiny-baby acts?
| Quote: | It really won't work well in MFW.
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Otoh, you thought I really wouldn't work well in MFW. How's that
working for you, pal? Perhaps it's time for a new paradigm.
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/ |
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Curt James
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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JMWhazzat?-Did-you-say-something?
<jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | Insulin is not evil.
|
[...]
Neither are you.
Still, you are rather boooooring. Do something about that, would you,
please?
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/ |
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JMW
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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"italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
JMW wrote:
How can the insulin released be "excess" if it normalized plasma
glucose?
Folks with impaired glucose/carb metabolism don't respond the same way
to insulin as normoglycemic folk do.
|
That is correct. Glucose-induced insulin release in Type 2 diabetics
is insufficient to regulate the transport and metabolism of the
glucose that induces it. However, amino-acid-induced glucose release
provides additional insulin that is sufficient to reduce plasma
glucose to healthy levels. And even though the progression of Type 2
diabetes reduces the capacity of pancreatic beta-cells for
glucose-induced insulin release, it does not have nearly so much of an
effect on their capacity for amino-acid-induced insulin release. All
of this is clearly set forth in recent studies. Have you missed these
recent findings? If so, let's review some of the conclusions:
"Overall, the data suggest that a high-protein diet may improve blood
glucose control in persons with type 2 diabetes." Gannon MC, Nuttall
FQ, Saeed A, Jordan K, Hoover H. An increase in dietary protein
improves the blood glucose response in persons with type 2 diabetes.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Oct;78(4):734-41. [See Table 1 - note that
high-protein diet included 24 ounces of skim milk and 3 ounces of
low-fate cottage cheese, chock full of the evil whey!]
"[G]lucose-induced insulin release was significantly lower from the
diabetic as compared to non-diabetic islets. Since islets from
diabetic subjects contained 34% less insulin than control islets, we
also expressed our data as percent of islet insulin content. Using
this method, glucose-induced insulin secretion was again lower in
diabetic islets. Using both methods, arginine-stimulated [i.e.,
amino-acid-induced] insulin release did not differ significantly
between the two groups. These experiments, therefore, showed a
selective defect of type 2 diabetes beta cells to release insulin in
response to glucose stimulation." Anello M, Lupi R, Spampinato D, Piro
S, Masini M, Boggi U, Del Prato S, Rabuazzo AM, Purrello F, Marchetti
P. Functional and morphological alterations of mitochondria in
pancreatic beta cells from type 2 diabetic patients. Diabetologia.
2005 Feb;48(2):282-9.
"Consistently, a marked decrease in insulin secretion during glucose
stimulation has been found, although the secretory response to amino
acids or sulphonylurea is usually less severely affected." Marchetti
P, Del Prato S, Lupi R, Del Guerra S. The pancreatic beta-cell in
human Type 2 diabetes. Nutr Metab Cardiovasc Dis. 2006 Mar;16 Suppl
1:S3-6.
"From these data we conclude that increasing the protein content of
the diet at the expense of carbohydrate can reduce the 24-hour
integrated plasma glucose concentration, at least over a 5-week period
of time. The reduction was similar to that of oral agents and renal
function was not affected significantly. Thus, increasing the protein
content of the diet with a corresponding decrease in the carbohydrate
content potentially is a patient empowering way of reducing the
hyperglycemia present in people with type 2 diabetes mellitus,
independent of the use of pharmaceutical agents." Nuttall FQ, Gannon
MC. Metabolic response of people with type 2 diabetes to a high
protein diet. Nutr Metab (Lond). 2004 Sep 13;1(1):6.
| Quote: | Insulin is not evil.
Tell that to someone with insulin resistance and is taking insulin
sensitizers to overcome it.
And what makes you think it exhausts the beta cells? Are you aware
that the impairment of glucose-induced insulin release by beta cells
in Type 2 diabetes does not apply to amino-acid-induced insulin
release?
Excess insulin is excess insulin. It leads to more insulin resistance
and adiposity in folks who are predisposed to the arc of metabolic
problems that leads to and includes type 2 diabetes.
|
Translation: "It's bad 'cuz I say so!" |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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italiangm wrote:
| Quote: | No problem. If the whey is a small percentage compared to the rest of
the meal and sugars are minimal, it shouldn't be a problem. However,
mixed meals don't seem to blunt the speed at which whey is broken down,
nor do they blunt the insulin response to the whey component. For
reasons that are not completely clear, whey triggers an unexpectedly
high insulin response compared to other proteins.
|
ok, but how do you know this?
| Quote: | The average schmoe isn't consuming whey like you or like those who are
bodybuilding. Joe Average often marches to a low carb drummer, seeking
add'l protein sources. Unfortunately, they buy prepackaged foods or
supplement with whey in ways that allow more sugars or starches than
are healthy. Chronic use is likely to lead to future health problems,
especially in those who have 'thrifty' genes or have a genetic
predisposition to impaired carb/glucose metabolism.
|
ok, question: do you take whey? in your opinion, would you say that
whey is NOT healthy long term? would it be more ideal to take say,
milk protein isolate or micellar casein instead in order to not cause
such a substantial rise in insulin? i'm talking about in a healthy
bodybuilder -- not diabetic. |
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JMW
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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"msamson11975@yahoo.ca" <msamson11975@yahoo.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | italiangm wrote:
No problem. If the whey is a small percentage compared to the rest of
the meal and sugars are minimal, it shouldn't be a problem. However,
mixed meals don't seem to blunt the speed at which whey is broken down,
nor do they blunt the insulin response to the whey component. For
reasons that are not completely clear, whey triggers an unexpectedly
high insulin response compared to other proteins.
ok, but how do you know this?
The average schmoe isn't consuming whey like you or like those who are
bodybuilding. Joe Average often marches to a low carb drummer, seeking
add'l protein sources. Unfortunately, they buy prepackaged foods or
supplement with whey in ways that allow more sugars or starches than
are healthy. Chronic use is likely to lead to future health problems,
especially in those who have 'thrifty' genes or have a genetic
predisposition to impaired carb/glucose metabolism.
ok, question: do you take whey? in your opinion, would you say that
whey is NOT healthy long term? would it be more ideal to take say,
milk protein isolate or micellar casein instead in order to not cause
such a substantial rise in insulin? i'm talking about in a healthy
bodybuilder -- not diabetic.
|
Amino acids elicit insulin release. Period.
Amino acids in combination with simple sugars cause a synergistic
insulin response that is greater than the sum of them individually.
The degree of insulin spike from amino acids in combination with
simple sugars is directly correlated to how fast the dietary proteins
are broken down and absorbed through the gut. Whey is pretty much at
the top of the line in that regard.
Insulin spike + high levels of circulating amino acids + resistance
exercise = ideal environment for muscle protein synthesis.
The research supporting that last one is too abundant to list. If you
want to review it, plug in "tipton wolfe amino" at PubMed. |
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italiangm
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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JMW wrote:
| Quote: | "italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
Folks with impaired glucose/carb metabolism don't respond the same way
to insulin as normoglycemic folk do.
That is correct. Glucose-induced insulin release in Type 2 diabetics
is insufficient to regulate the transport and metabolism of the
glucose that induces it. However, amino-acid-induced glucose release
provides additional insulin that is sufficient to reduce plasma
glucose to healthy levels. And even though the progression of Type 2
diabetes reduces the capacity of pancreatic beta-cells for
glucose-induced insulin release, it does not have nearly so much of an
effect on their capacity for amino-acid-induced insulin release.
|
You keep returning to this issue, but none of your citations refutes
the fact that whey triggers an extremely high insulin spike (3 times
higher than any other type of individual or mixed meal)..
| Quote: | All of this is clearly set forth in recent studies. Have you missed these
recent findings?
|
Nope. You keep trotting out citations that consistently fail to refute
the studies I cited, yet continue to claim these cites support your
assertion. They don't even come *close*.
| Quote: | Translation: "It's bad 'cuz I say so!"
|
That's how you'd like to paint it, but the evidence provided in my
original post says otherwise.
Yanno, the simplest solution is to trim misc.fitness.weights from
further replies to this thread. If folks from MFW are interested in
the subject matter they can head on over to sci.med.nutrition.
This will be my last reply that includes MFW. |
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