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JMW
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 56
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 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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"italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
JMW wrote:
"italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
Folks with impaired glucose/carb metabolism don't respond the same way
to insulin as normoglycemic folk do.
That is correct. Glucose-induced insulin release in Type 2 diabetics
is insufficient to regulate the transport and metabolism of the
glucose that induces it. However, amino-acid-induced glucose release
provides additional insulin that is sufficient to reduce plasma
glucose to healthy levels. And even though the progression of Type 2
diabetes reduces the capacity of pancreatic beta-cells for
glucose-induced insulin release, it does not have nearly so much of an
effect on their capacity for amino-acid-induced insulin release.
You keep returning to this issue, but none of your citations refutes
the fact that whey triggers an extremely high insulin spike (3 times
higher than any other type of individual or mixed meal)..
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*Pure* whey. Despite your repeated claims to the contrary, only those
involved in strength training take pure whey, and for them it is
beneficial. The closest you could come to establishing that
non-training Type 2 diabetics consume whey was the reference to
cottage cheese, and Dmitri produced a study establishing that the whey
fraction of cottage cheese, properly stored, is only about 20%.
Even the study *you cited* establishes that cottage cheese with
glucose produces an insulin response high enough regulate the
tranport/metabolism of glucose, which the glucose alone could not
produce. And it reduced plasma glucose levels as well as or better
than any of the other proteins tested. But the insulin spike from
cottage cheese with glucose was not anywhere near as high as glucose
with *pure whey*.
As I said in the beginning, you are intentionally making a mountain
out of a molehill in your one-man jihad against whey protein.
| Quote: | All of this is clearly set forth in recent studies. Have you missed these
recent findings?
Nope. You keep trotting out citations that consistently fail to refute
the studies I cited, yet continue to claim these cites support your
assertion. They don't even come *close*.
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Yet you fail to mention where those conclusions are lacking, choosing
instead to say ...
| Quote: | Translation: "It's bad 'cuz I say so!"
That's how you'd like to paint it, but the evidence provided in my
original post says otherwise.
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<heh> That's how you'd like to paint it ...
| Quote: | Yanno, the simplest solution is to trim misc.fitness.weights from
further replies to this thread. If folks from MFW are interested in
the subject matter they can head on over to sci.med.nutrition.
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Or not. I've participated in cross-posts between MFW and SMN for
years, and the one thing that is more abundant in SMN than MFW is
weenies like you who think they "own the truth" about dietary
components. In MFW, those of us who have been around for a while know
that few things are universally "good" or "bad," and that everything
related to nutrition is dependent on other factors.
| Quote: | This will be my last reply that includes MFW.
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Whatever. |
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italiangm
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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Note: misc.fitness.weights trimmed from response.
msamson11975@yahoo.ca wrote:
| Quote: | italiangm wrote:
No problem. If the whey is a small percentage compared to the rest of
the meal and sugars are minimal, it shouldn't be a problem. However,
mixed meals don't seem to blunt the speed at which whey is broken down,
nor do they blunt the insulin response to the whey component. For
reasons that are not completely clear, whey triggers an unexpectedly
high insulin response compared to other proteins.
ok, but how do you know this?
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You responded to my original thread that provided the citation I'm
basing my premise on. Suggest you go back up the thread and take a
look.
| Quote: | The average schmoe isn't consuming whey like you or like those who are
bodybuilding. Joe Average often marches to a low carb drummer, seeking
add'l protein sources. Unfortunately, they buy prepackaged foods or
supplement with whey in ways that allow more sugars or starches than
are healthy. Chronic use is likely to lead to future health problems,
especially in those who have 'thrifty' genes or have a genetic
predisposition to impaired carb/glucose metabolism.
ok, question: do you take whey?
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I have in the past, yes.
| Quote: | in your opinion, would you say that whey is NOT healthy long term?
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I would advise any person who has impaired glucose tolerance or type 2
diabetes to understand what is happening with insulin when they consume
whey and to proceed with caution.
| Quote: | would it be more ideal to take say, milk protein isolate or micellar
casein instead in order to not cause such a substantial rise in
insulin? i'm talking about in a healthy bodybuilder -- not diabetic.
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If a person doesn't have issues with glucose metabolism, then I'd say
it was perfectly safe to use whey.
That said, the big caveat here is that *lots* of folks aren't aware
they have impaired glucose tolerance. I was a perfect example. Every
time I get a physical, my fasting glucose results are completely
normal. My weight and BMI were well within normal. My doc usually said
"keep doing whatever it is you're doing" and "see you next year".
A couple years ago, I found that moving my left arm became increasingly
painful and restricted. The pain was keeping me awake at night. After
several xrays, my doc had no clue. So I spent some time reviewing the
literature and adhesive capsulitis (aka 'frozen shoulder') exactly
described my symptoms. However, FS is most common in diabetics, not
folks with normal glucose like me. So just for grins I had an oral
glucose tolerance test performed. Lo and behold, my results were at
the high end of the range for impaired glucose tolerance (IGT)!
So I got myself a glucose meter and began testing the food I ate.
Again, I had perfectly normal fasting, pre-meal, and 2 hr post-meal
results according to the standards of care established by the American
Diabetes Association. Then one day I happened to test at 1 hr, and
found the result showed a tremendous spike. I started testing more at
1 hr and found myself with an abnormally high spikes with several
foods, primarily fast-acting carbs.
That's what started my quest to learn which foods would produce lower
glycemic and insulinemic responses. |
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Charles
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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On 18 Jun 2006 13:01:35 -0700, "italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
JMW wrote:
"italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
Folks with impaired glucose/carb metabolism don't respond the same way
to insulin as normoglycemic folk do.
That is correct. Glucose-induced insulin release in Type 2 diabetics
is insufficient to regulate the transport and metabolism of the
glucose that induces it. However, amino-acid-induced glucose release
provides additional insulin that is sufficient to reduce plasma
glucose to healthy levels. And even though the progression of Type 2
diabetes reduces the capacity of pancreatic beta-cells for
glucose-induced insulin release, it does not have nearly so much of an
effect on their capacity for amino-acid-induced insulin release.
You keep returning to this issue, but none of your citations refutes
the fact that whey triggers an extremely high insulin spike (3 times
higher than any other type of individual or mixed meal)..
All of this is clearly set forth in recent studies. Have you missed these
recent findings?
Nope. You keep trotting out citations that consistently fail to refute
the studies I cited, yet continue to claim these cites support your
assertion. They don't even come *close*.
Translation: "It's bad 'cuz I say so!"
That's how you'd like to paint it, but the evidence provided in my
original post says otherwise.
Yanno, the simplest solution is to trim misc.fitness.weights from
further replies to this thread. If folks from MFW are interested in
the subject matter they can head on over to sci.med.nutrition.
This will be my last reply that includes MFW.
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Which in a nutshell means John Williams that, as suspected, you talk
out of your 'arse' for effect. |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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italiangm wrote:
| Quote: | So I got myself a glucose meter and began testing the food I ate.
Again, I had perfectly normal fasting, pre-meal, and 2 hr post-meal
results according to the standards of care established by the American
Diabetes Association. Then one day I happened to test at 1 hr, and
found the result showed a tremendous spike. I started testing more at
1 hr and found myself with an abnormally high spikes with several
foods, primarily fast-acting carbs.
That's what started my quest to learn which foods would produce lower
glycemic and insulinemic responses.
|
Thanks for the explanation. So I figure it would be more prudent to
just stick with milk protein isolate and micellar casein as they don't
tend to inflict high insulin levels. But as others have mentioned,
from a bodybuilding/muscle growth point of view the high insulin is the
best environment. Everything i've read on life extension forums and
other health sites state that keeping insulin under control is the
best, which is why i'm a little confused about spiking insulin.
I guess this just goes back to what i've always been thinking...stick
with whole foods and forget the supplements. It's the same with the
fish oil...now i'm hearing more and more about DHA's aging effects and
how fish oil isn't what everyone thinks. God damn fucking supplements! |
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italiangm
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks for the explanation. So I figure it would be more prudent to
just stick with milk protein isolate and micellar casein as they don't
tend to inflict high insulin levels. But as others have mentioned,
from a bodybuilding/muscle growth point of view the high insulin is the
best environment. Everything i've read on life extension forums and
other health sites state that keeping insulin under control is the
best, which is why i'm a little confused about spiking insulin.
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One of the few things JMW *correctly* points out is that those who are
engaged in weight training are less likely to have issues with higher
insulin levels. Add "for those who have a normal glycemic response" to
that statement and I'm in full agreement.
Even though I've got IGT, if I were engaged in a more dedicated weight
training routine, I bet I could withstand a higher insulin spike
without increasing insulin resistance or adiposity. Why? Because the
more dedicated workout would allow the additional insulin to
successfully transport more glucose into cells for energy.
Do you see what I'm saying here? If you know for a fact you've got a
normal glucose response, and are engaged in a dedicated weight training
routine, it is less likely you'd be affected by a whey-induced insulin
spike.
| Quote: | I guess this just goes back to what i've always been thinking...stick
with whole foods and forget the supplements. It's the same with the
fish oil...now i'm hearing more and more about DHA's aging effects and
how fish oil isn't what everyone thinks. God damn fucking supplements!
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We learn new things as time goes on. It's the nature of the beast. I
find it best for folks to take a measured response to what they learn,
then follow-up with medical testing (where possible) to ensure the path
chosen was the right one.
In the case of DHA's aging effects and fish oil, periodic tests of
cholesterol, cardiovascular markers, and liver/kidney function tests
will tell you if you're on the right path. |
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Will Brink
medicine forum addict
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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In article <1150339566.895464.222680@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"msamson11975@yahoo.ca" <msamson11975@yahoo.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | Will Brink wrote:
In article <1149977844.302687.137720@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"msamson11975@yahoo.ca" <msamson11975@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Eating mackerel
and herring (and probably also fish powder FPC type B, a byproduct by
fish oil production when using fresh caught fish not conservated by
formaldehyde and produced under sterile conditions) contain other
compounds than just fat, protein and carbohydrate and minerals. Many
of these compounds are preventive against bad side effects of fish oil
This is where Mr. Dink comes along and cries "Supporting Structures!"
No moron, it's where you claim the "supportive structures." I was only
quoting your stupid ass.
--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com
Willy wanna cracker? Cite Cite!!! CITE!! CITE!!!!
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Translated: you're another net idiot who can't support his pseudo
scientific statements and back peddles when cornered for any supporting
info of those claims or statements.
--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com |
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Charles
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 09:19:48 -0400, Will Brink <willbrink@comcast.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <1150339566.895464.222680@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"msamson11975@yahoo.ca" <msamson11975@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Will Brink wrote:
In article <1149977844.302687.137720@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"msamson11975@yahoo.ca" <msamson11975@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Eating mackerel
and herring (and probably also fish powder FPC type B, a byproduct by
fish oil production when using fresh caught fish not conservated by
formaldehyde and produced under sterile conditions) contain other
compounds than just fat, protein and carbohydrate and minerals. Many
of these compounds are preventive against bad side effects of fish oil
This is where Mr. Dink comes along and cries "Supporting Structures!"
No moron, it's where you claim the "supportive structures." I was only
quoting your stupid ass.
--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com
Willy wanna cracker? Cite Cite!!! CITE!! CITE!!!!
Translated: you're another net idiot who can't support his pseudo
scientific statements and back peddles when cornered for any supporting
info of those claims or statements.
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Surely that's 'pedals' you ill-educated little arsehole; on yer bike
mate!
HTH |
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Will Brink
medicine forum addict
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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In article <1150591076.440276.266680@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
"italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Your case is weak and unconvincing.
|
Yet it's by far stronger and better supported then your case.
| Quote: | Since you can't support your
assertions,
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He has done a better job then you have supporting his assertions.
| Quote: | I'll wait until larger studies are performed.
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And i am sure he would agree there, but the bulk of the data is on his
side.
| Quote: | Until then,
whey remains a hyperinsulinemia suspect, especially in folks with
impaired glucose tolerance, impaired fasting glucose, and type 2
diabetes. At risk folks should consume whey with caution.
|
He's not recommending people with syndrome X or type 2 down gallons of
whey in water, he's simply showing you are theorizing on VERY thin
evidence to support your assertions and there is a time and place for
insulin spikes. Again, the bulk of the data finds whey to have so many
potential benefits (remember that concept of risk to benefits?) that
avoiding whey based on the limited evidence you present would be
illogical at this time.
--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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Will Brink wrote:
| Quote: | He's not recommending people with syndrome X or type 2 down gallons of
whey in water, he's simply showing you are theorizing on VERY thin
evidence to support your assertions and there is a time and place for
insulin spikes. Again, the bulk of the data finds whey to have so many
potential benefits (remember that concept of risk to benefits?) that
avoiding whey based on the limited evidence you present would be
illogical at this time.
|
Ofcourse it is illogical. I'm guessing this has nothing to do with the
fact that you sell the stuff?
Face it Willy, you are ugly and have a gut. My advice is to back off
the whey a little. |
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italiangm
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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Will Brink wrote:
| Quote: | He's not recommending people with syndrome X or type 2 down gallons of
whey in water,
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Neither did I. Yet you pretend as if I did in the tone of your reply.
| Quote: | he's simply showing you are theorizing on VERY thin
evidence to support your assertions
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The evidence is hardly "thin". The study speaks for itself.
| Quote: | and there is a time and place for insulin spikes.
|
There is *never* a time or place for insulin spikes in those at risk
for insulin resistance and similar metabolic issues.
| Quote: | Again, the bulk of the data finds whey to have so many
potential benefits (remember that concept of risk to benefits?)
|
You are hardly in a position to lecture me, given the utter lack of
evidence you've provided to refute my assertion.
| Quote: | that avoiding whey based on the limited evidence you present would be
illogical at this time.
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Not for folks at risk. Hint: "at risk" seems to be the part you're
having difficulty wrapping your mind around. |
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Will Brink
medicine forum addict
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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In article <1150739019.988040.68200@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"msamson11975@yahoo.ca" <msamson11975@yahoo.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | Will Brink wrote:
He's not recommending people with syndrome X or type 2 down gallons of
whey in water, he's simply showing you are theorizing on VERY thin
evidence to support your assertions and there is a time and place for
insulin spikes. Again, the bulk of the data finds whey to have so many
potential benefits (remember that concept of risk to benefits?) that
avoiding whey based on the limited evidence you present would be
illogical at this time.
Ofcourse it is illogical. I'm guessing this has nothing to do with the
fact that you sell the stuff?
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Hey stupid, learn to read. I don't sell whey. I am a consultant to the
industry and an author among other things. And your involvement?
| Quote: |
Face it Willy, you are ugly and have a gut.
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Yes, my gut is huge. It hangs over my belt to my knees, as you can
plainly see here:
http://brinkzone.com/gallery.php?gcatid=13
Now, how about you post a pic of your ripped muscular self? We both know
you're a sniveling little twit without the balls to step up. Now run
along and let the grownups talk.
--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com |
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msamson11975@yahoo.ca
medicine forum addict
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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Will Brink wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, my gut is huge. It hangs over my belt to my knees, as you can
plainly see here:
http://brinkzone.com/gallery.php?gcatid=13
Now, how about you post a pic of your ripped muscular self? We both know
you're a sniveling little twit without the balls to step up. Now run
along and let the grownups talk.
|
My bad...didn't know I was arguing with a midget. I wish I had some
pics to post but i'll be honest, your arms are maybe a 1/2" bigger than
mine. You still didn't prove you don't have a gut, but considering
your age I guess you're in pretty decent shape. Must be the whey!
Regardless, I think you have some replying to do to italiangm because
he seemed to really rip you one in the last post.
BTW i'm not claiming anything, but I would like to get to the bottom of
things as a BB and consumer. |
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Will Brink
medicine forum addict
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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In article <1150747358.702989.130640@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"msamson11975@yahoo.ca" <msamson11975@yahoo.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | Will Brink wrote:
Yes, my gut is huge. It hangs over my belt to my knees, as you can
plainly see here:
http://brinkzone.com/gallery.php?gcatid=13
Now, how about you post a pic of your ripped muscular self? We both know
you're a sniveling little twit without the balls to step up. Now run
along and let the grownups talk.
My bad...didn't know I was arguing with a midget.
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Better then being a mental midget like you.
| Quote: | I wish I had some
pics to post but i'll be honest, your arms are maybe a 1/2" bigger than
mine.
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Really? I could claim my manly muscle member is 12' but I don't want to
cut myself short....post pics or shut your worthless pie hole.
| Quote: | You still didn't prove you don't have a gut, but considering
your age I guess you're in pretty decent shape.
|
I am 41 and would crush you on the squat rack and I am about half as
strong as i was in my 20s. I am 5'7" and 190s lbs at approx 11-12% BF
and wear a 33 pant size. No, I wont ever win the Mr Olympia and I am not
a big guy by bbing standards. I am at least willing to put my money
where my mouth is when I insult how people look.
Doubt it, but it has its uses.
| Quote: |
Regardless, I think you have some replying to do to italiangm because
he seemed to really rip you one in the last post.
|
You must have me confused with someone who gives a s**t. You lack the
knowledge to even know when a person is getting ripped a new one using
science to support their ripping.
| Quote: |
BTW i'm not claiming anything, but I would like to get to the bottom of
things as a BB and consumer.
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Then shut up and learn.
--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com |
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Will Brink
medicine forum addict
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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|
In article <1150739976.995359.22000@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
"italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Will Brink wrote:
He's not recommending people with syndrome X or type 2 down gallons of
whey in water,
Neither did I. Yet you pretend as if I did in the tone of your reply.
|
I didn't "pretend" any such thing.
| Quote: |
he's simply showing you are theorizing on VERY thin
evidence to support your assertions
The evidence is hardly "thin". The study speaks for itself.
|
Which you appear unable to understand and interpret correctly as he
pointed out, and BTW, no study speaks for itself, thus why people that
know something of the topic follow the bulk of the data.
| Quote: |
and there is a time and place for insulin spikes.
There is *never* a time or place for insulin spikes in those at risk
for insulin resistance and similar metabolic issues.
|
Depends on the magnitude of the spike. You clearly know nadda about
insulin metabolism. Without a postprandial spike in insulin, they would
have far larger problems, and that INCLUDES people with type 2.
| Quote: |
Again, the bulk of the data finds whey to have so many
potential benefits (remember that concept of risk to benefits?)
You are hardly in a position to lecture me,
|
Of course I am.
| Quote: | given the utter lack of
evidence you've provided to refute my assertion.
|
John did it and did it well and you don't appear to have the brains or
willingness to see it. I simply wanted to make it clear he's right, you
are wrong.
| Quote: |
that avoiding whey based on the limited evidence you present would be
illogical at this time.
Not for folks at risk. Hint: "at risk" seems to be the part you're
having difficulty wrapping your mind around.
|
At the VERY MOST, one could say "some data suggests people with type 2
may need to limit whey intake, but FAR more research is needed." That
would be the facts based on the very limited data you provided, which I
have read already and spoken with the people who conducted it. Why is it
most of the people posting here don't seem to follow the "sci" part of
the groups name?
--
Will Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com |
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Curt James
medicine forum beginner
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject:
Re: Fish Oil Processing
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Will Brink <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | http://brinkzone.com/gallery.php?gcatid=13
|
[...]
I did not know that Seal was 6'7".
Oh, wait...
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/ |
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