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Ron Peterson
medicine forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 181
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 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:07 am Post subject:
Re: crave carbs
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Susan wrote:
| Quote: | x-no-archive: yes
Ron Peterson wrote:
Jim Chinnis wrote:
What's your best study cite that shows saturated fat is bad in terms of
cardiovascular disease? I'm not being combative on this, I'd just like to
know so I can consider it.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/reviews/transfats.html seems to make the
point. It's not what I would call a study, but it seems to me a
synopsis of medical opinion that needs strong evidence to change.
Opinions aren't evidence.
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No, but it's a good idea to check with the experts firtst.
You might want to check out the following study:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/72/4/912 which concludes that diets
high in saturated fat and monounsaturated fats are less healthy than
other diets.
--
Ron |
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Ron Peterson
medicine forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:22 am Post subject:
Re: crave carbs
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Jim Chinnis wrote:
| Quote: | Interesting. None of the studies included an extreme that is becoming the
norm in many parts of the US at least: feed lots, where you stuff 'em with
as much grain as possible. Based on the studies you cited, one would expect
the fats in feed=lot cow milk to be absolutely deadly compared with the
healthful milk from any foraging cow.
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In Wisconsin, a dairy state, grazing land is disappearing at a fast
rate.
I think that dairy cows aren't fed a high grain diet to protect the
health of the cows. Cattle, being prepared for slaughter are another
story.
Confinement feeding of dairy cows such as in the milk parlor setups in
California probably use hay but that hay is probably nutritionally
inferior to grazing.
Do you drink fat-free milk or use full-fat milk despite its possible
poor lipid profile?
--
Ron |
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Susan
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 932
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:36 am Post subject:
Re: crave carbs
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x-no-archive: yes
Ron Peterson wrote:
| Quote: | You might want to check out the following study:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/72/4/912 which concludes that diets
high in saturated fat and monounsaturated fats are less healthy than
other diets.
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I've already done my homework.
You might want to read and give us your analysis of the studies Matti
and I posted first.
Susan |
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Susan
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 932
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:38 am Post subject:
Re: crave carbs
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x-no-archive: yes
Ron Peterson wrote:
| Quote: | Jim Chinnis wrote:
Interesting. None of the studies included an extreme that is becoming the
norm in many parts of the US at least: feed lots, where you stuff 'em with
as much grain as possible. Based on the studies you cited, one would expect
the fats in feed=lot cow milk to be absolutely deadly compared with the
healthful milk from any foraging cow.
In Wisconsin, a dairy state, grazing land is disappearing at a fast
rate.
I think that dairy cows aren't fed a high grain diet to protect the
health of the cows. Cattle, being prepared for slaughter are another
story.
Confinement feeding of dairy cows such as in the milk parlor setups in
California probably use hay but that hay is probably nutritionally
inferior to grazing.
Do you drink fat-free milk or use full-fat milk despite its possible
poor lipid profile?
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I don't drink milk, but I use full fat dairy products. I've cut my
serum lipid risk level from the highest decile to below average since
switching from a low fat diet to a low carb, higher fat one.
Susan |
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Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:47 am Post subject:
Re: crave carbs
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"Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in part:
| Quote: |
Susan wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Ron Peterson wrote:
Jim Chinnis wrote:
What's your best study cite that shows saturated fat is bad in terms of
cardiovascular disease? I'm not being combative on this, I'd just like to
know so I can consider it.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/reviews/transfats.html seems to make the
point. It's not what I would call a study, but it seems to me a
synopsis of medical opinion that needs strong evidence to change.
Opinions aren't evidence.
No, but it's a good idea to check with the experts firtst.
|
Well, your best shot was an expert opinion that certain polyunsaturated fats
are deadly. That doesn't exactly establish that saturated fats are.
| Quote: | You might want to check out the following study:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/72/4/912 which concludes that diets
high in saturated fat and monounsaturated fats are less healthy than
other diets.
|
It's a prospective cohort study, not a randomized trial of any sort.
Randomized trials are hard to come by for major types of diet, for obvious
reasons, but cohort studies are extremely weak. One never really know which
factors (including unconsidered ones) cause the differences that are
observed.
What the paper says in that regard is:
"because there are many potential
differences in nutrients between dietary patterns, this
approach cannot be specific about the particular nutrients
responsible for the observed differences in disease risk, and thus
it may not be very informative about biological relations between
dietary components and disease risk."
I agree.
They go on somewhat speculatively anyway:
"In conclusion, our data suggest that 2 dietary patterns derived
from food consumption data assessed by the FFQ significantly
predict the incidence of CHD, independent of other lifestyle
variables. This study provided strong evidence that a diet high in
vegetables, fruit, legumes, whole grains, fish, and poultry and
low in red meat, processed meat, high-fat dairy products, and
refined grains may reduce the risk of CHD."
I guess one can interpret the above to be because red meats, processed
meats, and high-fat dairy have higher saturated fat than fruit, vegetables,
fish, etc. But of course they differ in other ways as well. And the people
who choose to be heavy consumers of red meat instead of vegetables and fish
differ in others ways from those who choose the opposite. There's no way
that the factor analysis captured all those differences.
I personally think that red meat may be hazardous. But the hazard may be
mostly from the feedlot practices that produce it and that transform the
fatty acid profile. I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does.
Full-fat dairy is a similar problem. If the conclusion is correct, and not
spurious, is it due to the grain-based dairy industy's methods or to the
saturated fat in the milk from foraging cows? We don't know.
I do think that full fat dairy or red meat from the supermarket is a bad
idea...as is a bagel.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu |
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Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:53 am Post subject:
Re: crave carbs
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"Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in part:
| Quote: |
Jim Chinnis wrote:
Interesting. None of the studies included an extreme that is becoming the
norm in many parts of the US at least: feed lots, where you stuff 'em with
as much grain as possible. Based on the studies you cited, one would expect
the fats in feed=lot cow milk to be absolutely deadly compared with the
healthful milk from any foraging cow.
In Wisconsin, a dairy state, grazing land is disappearing at a fast
rate.
I think that dairy cows aren't fed a high grain diet to protect the
health of the cows. Cattle, being prepared for slaughter are another
story.
|
But dairy cows in the US generally do not forage much anymore. They are fed
silage of various sorts, and lots of corn-based feeds.
| Quote: | Confinement feeding of dairy cows such as in the milk parlor setups in
California probably use hay but that hay is probably nutritionally
inferior to grazing.
|
Yep.
| Quote: | Do you drink fat-free milk or use full-fat milk despite its possible
poor lipid profile?
|
I drink one glass of fat-free milk every day with two or three shots of
espresso... I do consume cheese fairly regularly, though a lot of it is from
goats (some from sheep) and most of it is produced on local "organic" farms.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu |
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Alf Christophersen
medicine forum Guru
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:25 am Post subject:
Re: crave carbs
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On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 02:59:09 GMT, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu>
wrote:
| Quote: | Not only is it not a study, but trans-fats are unsaturated fats!
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To make confusions complete, CLA is a transfat  |
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Ron Peterson
medicine forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject:
Re: crave carbs
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Jim Chinnis wrote:
| Quote: | "Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in part:
In Wisconsin, a dairy state, grazing land is disappearing at a fast
rate.
I think that dairy cows aren't fed a high grain diet to protect the
health of the cows. Cattle, being prepared for slaughter are another
story.
But dairy cows in the US generally do not forage much anymore. They are fed
silage of various sorts, and lots of corn-based feeds.
|
The silage (corn-based) is high in starch so some hay needs to be fed
to allow proper digestion. That silage is also low in calcium requiring
minerals be added to the diet. It is possible that animal fats may be
added to diet of dairy cows to enhance milk production.
The problem with ruminant animals is that their digestive system is
essentially a chemical factory with the bacteria producing saturated
and trans-fat fats.
| Quote: | Do you drink fat-free milk or use full-fat milk despite its possible
poor lipid profile?
I drink one glass of fat-free milk every day with two or three shots of
espresso... I do consume cheese fairly regularly, though a lot of it is from
goats (some from sheep) and most of it is produced on local "organic" farms.
|
So you may not be getting an excessive amount saturated fats per day.
I drink about 3 glasses of skim milk a day or equivalent (yogurt). In
addition eat about an ounce of cheese (but try for the reduced fat
varieties if the price isn't too high).
--
Ron |
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