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Mr-Natural-Health
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1807

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

californiagirl562 wrote:

Quote:

I need help, like everyone else. I have fibromyalgia so I don't get the
exercise I need and hate and I crave carbs like crackers and squeeze
cheese , mornings I eat a breakfast bar and coffee, afternoon its the
crackers and cheese, maybe some fruit. Evening maybe a steak but
usually more crackers and cheese. I have to get off this thing. Is
there any supplement out there to help on my carb cravings? Thanks,

Yeah, ... sure, right. Let's all pop pills and avoid the real problem
so that we will be constantly complaining, just like TC does.
http://food.naturalhealthperspective.com/diettips.html

NoOption5L@aol.com
medicine forum beginner

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 32

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:31 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

TC wrote:

Quote:

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:
TC wrote:
NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:
californiagirl562 wrote:
I need help, like everyone else. I have fibromyalgia so I don't get the
exercise I need and hate and I crave carbs like crackers and squeeze
cheese , mornings I eat a breakfast bar and coffee, afternoon its the
crackers and cheese, maybe some fruit. Evening maybe a steak but
usually more crackers and cheese. I have to get off this thing. Is
there any supplement out there to help on my carb cravings? Thanks,

There's nothing wrong with carbs. Like fats and protein, it's the
quality of them that counts. Most crackers sold are made with enriched
flours. Look for crackers made exclusively from whole grain. Sadly
you'll probably have to visit a quality health food store to buy them,
though "normal" supermarkets are finally offering them in a health food
section or aisle. But what your diet is lacking is variety.

Here are some ideas:

For breakfast try: real whole grain cereals w/non-fat milk, eggs, fresh
fruits/berries, plain (nothing added) nuts, and/or some hot tea --
black, white or green.

You can skip the grains, low nutrient density regardless or whether it
is refined or whole grain.

Here's some good reading for you.

http://www.whfoods.com/

What is wrong with whole fat milk, added satiating factor.

Saturated fat.

easy on the berries, lots of sugars.

I say eat as many as you want. Lots of antioxidants. I couldn't
imagine a diet without/or with very little fruit. The taste and
goodness you'd miss out on!

Tea is great.

You know it.

Mid-morning snack: plain non-fat yogurt, and add you own fresh fruit,
nuts, oatmeal and/or wheat germ.

If you eat eggs and bacon and drink whole mlk, you won't need a mid
morning snack. You won't be hungry for 5 hrs or so.

Bacon is laced with the poison sodium nitrate. And it's nothing but
strips of animal fat. Disgusting. Probably better to eat Spam.

Here's the thing. Never eat enough to, or anything, that'll last you
five hours. Grazing is good... eat just enough to kill the hunger
pains and then eat again when the pains come back. Doing this keeps
your blood sugar nice and stable and your energy up.

Lunch: brown rice, fresh salad (not using any of the common iceberg
lettuce -- use fresh spinich/"spring mix", tomatos, carrots, brocolli )
topped with olive oil/vingar dressing, canned salmon/tuna sandwich
using whole grain bread, baked potato and/or lentil soup.

A good roast beef sandwich on rye bread is very satisfying too.

That's an option... a little/lean roast beef, as long as it's between
some whole grain rye bread.

I'd skip the potato or at least only have a quarter of half at most. Not
nutrient dense enough to make much difference while limitting the carbs
somewhat.

Wow! You're kidding. Again, do some reading.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=48

And you can add in (I know technically not a potato) sweet potatoes.
They are simply awesome!! They are my favorites!

Afternoon snack: fresh fruit like an apple, banana, fresh berries.

Again, if you get enough fat and protein at lunch you don't need a
mid-afternoon snack.

See above.

Plus, olive oil on the slad will give you fat, and it's MUCH better
than animal fat.

Sweet fruit will only stimulate your apetite.

Who told you that? Fruit is great. They have SO many healthy
benefits!! And they're something most people don't eat anywhere near
enough off.

Nuts are a good idea if you are hungry.

Nuts are good. I regularly eat many varieties.

Dinner: steamed green beans, skinless chicken breast, whole grain pasta
w/tomato sauce, glass of milk, and kiwi fruit or watermelon for desert.

Why skinless? The skin contains healthy fat soluble vitamins, collagen
and fat to satiate the apetite.

That's okay... I'll get my fats... healthy fats, from nuts and
vegetable oils.

Skip the pasta altogether, not very nutrient dense at all.

Gosh, what have you been reading?

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=66

And there are lots of good varieties of grains: Spelt, Quinoa, Millet,
Barley, Oats and Amarath are some of my favorites.

Watch the sweet fruits, it'll just stimulate your apetite for more sweet things.

That's not true. (Who's telling you that, Dr. Adkins?) Do not limit
your fruit intake... eat as much as you like. Fruit is so power packed
with nutrients cutting them out/reducing your servivings of them would
be a HUGE mistake.

Eat enough meat with fats to satiate, approx. 4-5 ounces of meat will
do the trick. Beef, pork, chicken, fish,from heathy animals is very
healthy and very nutrient dense and will contains minerals in greater
concentration than from plant sources.

Yep, 4-5 ounces a day of meat a day from healthly lean animals (or
fish). Ostrich, deer, and bison are some of the best.

Eat a salad and watch the salad dressing for added sugars or make your own
vinaigrette.

Good advice.

(This is has been my type of daily diet now for about twenty years and
having energy has never been a problem for me.)

Bottom line: Start experiencing some new [quality] foods.

How many presciptions have you needed per year on this diet?

Zero. I rarely, if ever, take any medication (or supplements -- they
have no oversight/regulation). I think it throws your system off.
It's been years since I've been sick.

My waist is 30" and weight 165-168 (height 5' 9"). My waist is the
same as it was in high school (25 years ago), but I've gained about 5-7
(muscle). I'm only a part-time runner, but can run a mile and a half
in under 10 minutes (9:32 is my best) and have run a couple half
marathons (best time a 1:39). My resting heart rate is in the mid 30s.
Blood pressure is optimal.

About 6 years ago I went to a diet like this :

1) primarily animal protein and fats
2) plenty of fresh produce
3) watching the amounts of sweet fruits,
4) and a minimal of cereal grains,

and I reduced my medical presriptions needs to zero. Not a single
prescription for any ailment. No infections, no colds, no flus, no
painkillers, no anti-inflammatory drugs, nothing. Nothing but good
health. Blood pressure bang on normal, blood sugars bang on normal,
blood lipids bang on normal. No traces of anxiety/depression.

health (hlth)
n.
The overall condition of an organism at a given time.
Soundness, especially of body or mind; freedom from disease or
abnormality.

I have achieved excellent health by eating the evil animal fats and
proteins and cutting out refined carbs and grains. And lost 25 lbs. And
kept it off EASILY. Without going hungry.

Weight loss doesn't necessarily mean it's from a healthy diet. There
are lots of 'rebel diets' (diets that go against the experts) that can
get/keep you slim. Keeping slim is easy.

Without increasing my level of activity which has always been about moderate to
intermediate.

Please define "moderate to intermediate".

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

I don't smoke. Never have, never will.

Try testing your diet by lifting weights for a while. See how your
recover/recovery time is. And also try a 45 minute - 2 hour cardio
workout. Let me know how your diet serves you.

I know my diet serves me well. Last year/early this year I didn't run
at all for 6 months. Ran a few times in prep and still was able to
clip off a 10:08 mile and a half. As for lifting weights, I can lift
for a couple hours (and I don't sit around and talk) and still not want
to/be ready to leave... it's hard to stop, but I try to clip it off
after just an hour.

I noticed that you sidestepped the important health indicators. How
many prescriptions?

None.

Quote:

Any colds?

Zero. I can't even remember the last time.

Any flus?

Zip. Again, it been so long.

Quote:

Any infections like throat,

Notta. Ditto.

Quote:

ear or yeast infections?

Nope. Ditto.

Quote:

What medications in the last year?
Huh?

A few days of Motrin (and some ice) due to an injury.

Now, what about you?

Give us your weight, waist, cardio ability, and details on your
exercise program.

Also, where did your philosophy on diet come from?

Patrick

NoOption5L@aol.com
medicine forum beginner

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 32

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

Jim Chinnis wrote:

Quote:

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in part:

They're missing out on the goodness/and taste of many
fruits, vegetables and whole grains. That's a tragedy. Samplying
nature's vast bounty of fruit, vegetables and whole grains is one of
the best things in life...

I'm one of those people you are disparaging. A lot of people have problems
with carb cravings and overeating because they eat too many carbs for
someone who is even a tad overweight. I don't suggest that they eat cheese
and meat and stop eating all carbs. I think they should stop eating things
made from flour--whole grain or not--potatoes, rice, and sweets. Make the
carbs count by eating healthy produce, but skip the starchy stuff.

First let me reiterate a point. People were not/are not getting fat
eating whole grains. Most of these overweight people don't even know
what a whole grain is. They think any bread, baked goods, crackers or
whatever, that's grainy, and not soft and creamy smooth in the mouth,
is "weird".

Whole grains are very nutritious, they fill you up, and keep you filled
up.

Quote:

After a while, when the weight has dropped, try adding in some whole grain
stuff and see if the weight stays right and the cravings stay away.

Here's my "diet plan". Eat only healthy foods (see the whfoods.com)
and get more exercise. The fat will come off and will be replaced with
muscle. I say screw worrying about weight/numbers. It's about eating
wholesome foods and keeping/building muscle.

Quote:

Worrying about food glycemic-numbers is a waste. Too many variables.
For instance, carrots are high glycemic, right? But what if those
carrots are sitting on top of a salad with olive oil? The oil is
surely going to slow down the digestive process, right.

The thing is most of the time people consume a number of foods at a
meal. So if you're eating some nuts, eggs, beans, or fish for lunch
how is the high-glycemic (and very nutritious) watermelon for desert
going to hurt?

Quote:

We evolved our metabolisms without eating any "whole grain" at all.

Most every ancient society has had a grain/grains at the center of
their diet.

Quote:

If you ever get a chance to live in the Middle East, you'll see that in
the "cradle of civilization" bread is at the center of the diet.

Quote:

We also didn't profess revulsion at bacon for being fatty. We ate pretty
much the whole animal.

Yes, lean animals (and meat free of sodium nitrate). Not the lab
expirements they call animals these days.

Note: In the Middle East, lamb, chicken and fish is often served, and
is nearly always in between or on top of bread.

Quote:

What we didn't have were baked goods, trans fats, and any foods that weren't
"whole."

I agree. Baked goods should be an ocassional treat. Trans
fats/hydrogenated oils should have been off the market way back in the
70s. Whole foods and whole grains are good.

Quote:

(We also didn't have feed-lot meats [and even fish] raised on
grain, with their altered lipid profiles, but that's a different issue.)

Agreed. See above.

You have some good points, Jim. I only suggest you don't shy away from
any fruits, veggies, or whole grains.

Patrick

Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:48 am Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in part:

Quote:

Jim Chinnis wrote:
NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in part:

They're missing out on the goodness/and taste of many
fruits, vegetables and whole grains. That's a tragedy. Samplying
nature's vast bounty of fruit, vegetables and whole grains is one of
the best things in life...

I'm one of those people you are disparaging. A lot of people have problems
with carb cravings and overeating because they eat too many carbs for
someone who is even a tad overweight. I don't suggest that they eat cheese
and meat and stop eating all carbs. I think they should stop eating things
made from flour--whole grain or not--potatoes, rice, and sweets. Make the
carbs count by eating healthy produce, but skip the starchy stuff.

First let me reiterate a point. People were not/are not getting fat
eating whole grains. Most of these overweight people don't even know
what a whole grain is. They think any bread, baked goods, crackers or
whatever, that's grainy, and not soft and creamy smooth in the mouth,
is "weird".

I agree. But if they switched their branless, germless grain products for
so-called whole grain (flour) products, they'd not have any less carb
craving nor would they lose weight. The glucose and insulin responses are
virtually identical.

Quote:

Whole grains are very nutritious, they fill you up, and keep you filled
up.

I'm not so sure. There is fiber in wholegrain products, but it has been
removed from the endosperm. So there is still a spike in glucose in most
overweight people.

Quote:

After a while, when the weight has dropped, try adding in some whole grain
stuff and see if the weight stays right and the cravings stay away.

Here's my "diet plan". Eat only healthy foods (see the whfoods.com)
and get more exercise. The fat will come off and will be replaced with
muscle. I say screw worrying about weight/numbers. It's about eating
wholesome foods and keeping/building muscle.

No will argue with eating healthy and exercising. The issue is what,
exactly, is healthy.

Quote:

The glycemic effect of carrots is nil, unless you eat a few kg. And, no, the
oil won't stop the rapid breakdown of the carb in the carrot. The oil is
digested very slowly. What would slow down the digestion of the carrot would
be if it were something else, like whole kernel rye--something with a fine
structure that slows its digestion.

Quote:

It hurts less as dessert. I often have fruit as a dessert. But the
overweight carb-cravers have mostly carbs, from what I've seen.

Quote:

We evolved our metabolisms without eating any "whole grain" at all.

Most every ancient society has had a grain/grains at the center of
their diet.

But we had already evolved our metabolic systems before those ancient
society discovered the wonders of bread. I really think that we were ok with
high carb until we got machines to do everything for us combined with an
overabundance of cheap food--mostly carbs. The combination of sloth and
abundance is deadly. And diets centered on flour heaps on the injury.

Quote:

Agree.

Quote:

Note: In the Middle East, lamb, chicken and fish is often served, and
is nearly always in between or on top of bread.

What we didn't have were baked goods, trans fats, and any foods that weren't
"whole."

I agree. Baked goods should be an ocassional treat. Trans
fats/hydrogenated oils should have been off the market way back in the
70s. Whole foods and whole grains are good.

(We also didn't have feed-lot meats [and even fish] raised on
grain, with their altered lipid profiles, but that's a different issue.)

Agreed. See above.

You have some good points, Jim. I only suggest you don't shy away from
any fruits, veggies, or whole grains.

I have some whole grain every day. I like it. And I have grown organic
produce, and eat it every day. I also buy grass fed meat from local farmers,
etc. I like a wide range of foreign food for that matter.

But I've kept records. I gain weight when my carbs go up. I can lose it
pretty easily by watching the carbs. I watch the carbs by cutting out those
with a high glycemic load. It's not so complicated.

I also exercise, before you ask. I cycle and walk a lot and I work out
almost every day at the gym. Despite that, I *still* pile on pounds if I eat
the usual recommended low-fat, high-carb diet. I've tried it.

And the research I've followed over the past six years shows I'm not unusual
in my response.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu

TC
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 1814

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:15 am Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:

Quote:

I noticed that you sidestepped the important health indicators. How
many prescriptions?

None.

Any colds?

Zero. I can't even remember the last time.

Any flus?

Zip. Again, it been so long.

Any infections like throat,

Notta. Ditto.

ear or yeast infections?

Nope. Ditto.

What medications in the last year?
Huh?

A few days of Motrin (and some ice) due to an injury.

Now, what about you?

Give us your weight, waist, cardio ability, and details on your
exercise program.

Also, where did your philosophy on diet come from?

Patrick

175 lbs. 5 ft 10 in. 34 waist. Well muscled, strong muscles in legs,
and solid upper body. I bike a few miles each week. Moderately active
otherwise. That's it for exercise.

About 7 years ago I was getting close to 200 lbs by eating less meats
and fats and more grains and carbs. Got sick with a flu or cold at
least once every six weeks. Strep throat once in a while. Regular yeast
infections, along with the wife, who was also getting sickly like me
and she was getting heavier too. We cut fats and we cuts meats and we
ate more low-fat grains and low-fat milk and low-fat muffins and
low-fat pasta and low fat skinless chicken breasts etc etc.

She borrowed a book called The Zone from a friend. I very reluctantly
read it and thought that it seemed to make some sense and we had
nothing to lose because eating less (fat) and exercising more did not
seem to be doing anything but making us fatter and sicker.

So we started the low carb way of life and each lost all our excess
weight, me in about 6 months, her in about a year (she had more to
lose). We never went hungry. My blood profile is now bang on normal. No
more colds, flus, medications, etc. Never been healthier. We eat fatty
foods all the time. Never skimp on it. Also we eat only real fats.
Tallow, lard, olive oil, butter. Eggs, bacon, fresh sausage, etc. Fresh
produce only. No processed crap. Real food. No margarine or shortening.

We eat like royalty. BBQ's, steaks, burgers, pork chops, fish, chicken
soup made from scratch, real butter, full fat milk, and full fat cream,
and full fat ice cream when we indulge. Meats and fats from healthy
well reared animals is very very healthy. And we also eat lots of
salads and fresh produce. But we do not over indulge in sweet fruits.
Remember, bears pack on a lot of weight in a relatively short time by
eating a lot of berries in the spring, summer and fall.

Modern fruits are not actually as nutrient dense as you would think.
Most have been bred and genetically modified by selective breeding to
be way sweeter than they were in the past, and in many cases that
process has diminished its nutrient content. And often they are bred
simply to be tougher so that they can ship better, again, with no
consideration for nutrition, and usually to its detriment. Then often
they are grown in nutrient deficient and highly chemically fertilized
soils. Then often they are picked before ripening and before they reach
their peak in nutrition and forced to ripen in transit or in storage
where they lose a lot of their water soluble vitamin content.

If you can reach out and pluck a piece of fruit right off the plant
when it it ripe and ready for picking, then you probably have good
nutrition. But if you go to the corner grocer and pick it off the
shelf, you have no idea what kind of conditions it was grown in and/or
how long it's been since it was picked, and a few days in transit or
storage can serious compromise its nutritional profile.

Have you ever directly compared the nutritional profiles of fruits
with the nutritional profiles of meats? Go check it out here:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

You will be absolutely amazed how meat kicks fruits butt when it comes
to nutrient density and variety. Meats are chock full of vitamins and
minerals. Both in the quantity of each vitamin and in the variety and
number of vitamins and minerals.

TC

Mr-Natural-Health
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1807

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

TC wrote:

Quote:

If you eat eggs and bacon and drink whole mlk, you won't need a mid
morning snack. You won't be hungry for 5 hrs or so.

John Harvey Kellogg, MD solved the problem of eating this crappy
breakfast over 100 years ago.

You should really keep up with the literature, TC. It is not all that
hard. If you were to stop complaining all the time, you would actually
have plenty of time to have a life.

Who says so? I do.

TC
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 1814

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

Mr. Natural-Health wrote:

Quote:

TC wrote:

If you eat eggs and bacon and drink whole mlk, you won't need a mid
morning snack. You won't be hungry for 5 hrs or so.

John Harvey Kellogg, MD solved the problem of eating this crappy
breakfast over 100 years ago.

You should really keep up with the literature, TC. It is not all that
hard. If you were to stop complaining all the time, you would actually
have plenty of time to have a life.

Who says so? I do.

John Harvey Kellogg is the Father of Modern Food Industry Scammers and
Quacks. He was the first to use completely nutrient-deficient and cheap
cooked and dried corn paste as a marketable commodity and he did all he
could to pretend it was health food. He was also the first marketer to
use a "medical doctor" as a promotion scam angle. He found the product
first, then he got the "degree" in "medicine", then he sold the
product. He wasn't a doctor who found a healthy food. He was a scammer
who formulated a nutrition deficient food then he got the medical
degree so he could make this crappy food look like it was a medical
marvel.

And it doesn't surprise me that an abject idiot like you would be so
completely clued out as to who and what kellogg was all about. Gohdiot.

TC

NoOption5L@aol.com
medicine forum beginner

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 32

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

Jim Chinnis wrote:

Quote:

They're missing out on the goodness/and taste of many
fruits, vegetables and whole grains. That's a tragedy. Samplying
nature's vast bounty of fruit, vegetables and whole grains is one of
the best things in life...

I'm one of those people you are disparaging. A lot of people have problems
with carb cravings and overeating because they eat too many carbs for
someone who is even a tad overweight. I don't suggest that they eat cheese
and meat and stop eating all carbs. I think they should stop eating things
made from flour--whole grain or not--potatoes, rice, and sweets. Make the
carbs count by eating healthy produce, but skip the starchy stuff.

First let me reiterate a point. People were not/are not getting fat
eating whole grains. Most of these overweight people don't even know
what a whole grain is. They think any bread, baked goods, crackers or
whatever, that's grainy, and not soft and creamy smooth in the mouth,
is "weird".

I agree. But if they switched their branless, germless grain products for
so-called whole grain (flour) products, they'd not have any less carb
craving nor would they lose weight. The glucose and insulin responses are
virtually identical.

Whole grain products are digested slower than white/enriched flour.
Plus, how often do you eat _just_ a slice of bread? My bread is
usually served as part of a sandwich or with a meal.

Quote:

Whole grains are very nutritious, they fill you up, and keep you filled
up.

I'm not so sure. There is fiber in wholegrain products, but it has been
removed from the endosperm. So there is still a spike in glucose in most
overweight people.

Whole grain = germ, bran and endosperm. When whole grains are used to
make a bread you're getting all the bran. And bran plus water/liquid
fills you up.

As for the "spike", see above.

Quote:

whfoods.com

Quote:

There are really a lot of data of various kinds now that indicate that lots
of high-glycemic carbs aren't so good for at least a lot of us. There's also
a lot of weakness in the arguments that high fat diets are bad for
us--they're probably wrong.

Worrying about food glycemic-numbers is a waste. Too many variables.
For instance, carrots are high glycemic, right? But what if those
carrots are sitting on top of a salad with olive oil? The oil is
surely going to slow down the digestive process, right.

The glycemic effect of carrots is nil, unless you eat a few kg. And, no, the
oil won't stop the rapid breakdown of the carb in the carrot. The oil is
digested very slowly. What would slow down the digestion of the carrot would
be if it were something else, like whole kernel rye--something with a fine
structure that slows its digestion.

But it's all in your gut at the same time. Some will burn faster,
others slower, for a nice even burn.

Quote:

The thing is most of the time people consume a number of foods at a
meal. So if you're eating some nuts, eggs, beans, or fish for lunch
how is the high-glycemic (and very nutritious) watermelon for desert
going to hurt?

It hurts less as dessert. I often have fruit as a dessert. But the
overweight carb-cravers have mostly carbs, from what I've seen.

The overweight people I see eat, yes, carbs, but in the form white
flour, white sugar, corn syrup products. Please don't lump whole grain
products with "convenient" foods.) I also see them eating lots of
greasy/fatty meats in the form of sausages, hotdogs, hamburgers and
bacon.

Quote:

We evolved our metabolisms without eating any "whole grain" at all.

Most every ancient society has had a grain/grains at the center of
their diet.

But we had already evolved our metabolic systems before those ancient
society discovered the wonders of bread.

The people who developed the breads are the ones who built the
societies/civilizations.

Quote:

I really think that we were ok with high carb until we got machines to do everything for
us combined with an overabundance of cheap food--mostly carbs.

Agreed, but don't include whole-grain products. (We as a society have
not been exclusively eating whole grains for a longgg time.) And do
include the cheap hamburgers, hotdogs, sausages, 12 oz steaks, pork
ribs, etc sold at every fast food place.

Quote:

The combination of sloth and abundance is deadly. And diets centered on flour heaps
on the injury.

Agreed, but enriched/non-whole-grain flour.

Quote:

The term is used in the US just to mean ground up, broken seeds from grains, where
the components are present in the flour in the rough proportions they are in
the whole kernels. During our evolution, we ate some whole kernel grains
(with very low glycemic indices) but no "whole grain" breads and such at all
(with their high glycemic indices).

If you ever get a chance to live in the Middle East, you'll see that in
the "cradle of civilization" bread is at the center of the diet.

We also didn't profess revulsion at bacon for being fatty. We ate pretty
much the whole animal.

Yes, lean animals (and meat free of sodium nitrate). Not the lab
experiments they call animals these days.

Agree.

Note: In the Middle East, lamb, chicken and fish is often served, and
is nearly always in between or on top of bread.

What we didn't have were baked goods, trans fats, and any foods that weren't
"whole."

I agree. Baked goods should be an ocassional treat. Trans
fats/hydrogenated oils should have been off the market way back in the
70s. Whole foods and whole grains are good.

(We also didn't have feed-lot meats [and even fish] raised on
grain, with their altered lipid profiles, but that's a different issue.)

Agreed. See above.

You have some good points, Jim. I only suggest you don't shy away from
any fruits, veggies, or whole grains.

I have some whole grain every day. I like it. And I have grown organic
produce, and eat it every day. I also buy grass fed meat from local farmers,
etc. I like a wide range of foreign food for that matter.

Good for you! Organic and/or local is good stuff!

Things are improving in the supermarkets. Whole-grains are getting
more popular by the day (I remember back when you couldn't find any
whole grain-products (expect in health food stores). Organic is now
huge, grass fed beef and even things like buffalo meat are available.
Things are a changin'... finally.

Quote:

But I've kept records. I gain weight when my carbs go up. I can lose it
pretty easily by watching the carbs. I watch the carbs by cutting out those
with a high glycemic load. It's not so complicated.

I don't even worry about percentage of carbs/proteins/fats I eat. I
just eat the types of foods that are on whfoods.com, and in organic
and/or local form whenever I can get them. I also believe it's all in
the ingredients in recipes. If I want a burger it's made from
buffalo/turkey/ostrich meat, etc. If I want pancakes, I use
whole-grain flours and pure maple syrup. If I want something sweet,
I'll grab some blackberries, a kiwi, or perhaps, a piece of 85% cocoa
dark chocolate bar. And I vary/don't limit my selections. Flours I
use are amaranth, spelt, barley, buckwheat, rye, millet, etc.
Nuts/seeds: almonds, Brazil, pecans, sunflower, walnuts, pumpkin etc.
It's all good!

Quote:

I also exercise, before you ask. I cycle and walk a lot and I work out
almost every day at the gym. Despite that, I *still* pile on pounds if I eat
the usual recommended low-fat, high-carb diet. I've tried it.

Keep in mind it's the calories not the carbs.

Is it even possible to eat enough fresh fruit that you'd become
overweight? I think you'd either become stuffed full or have the shits
long before you exceeded your caloric max for the day.

Quote:

And the research I've followed over the past six years shows I'm not unusual
in my response.

The research I've been following over the past 21 years has been saying
mostly the same things: a constant variety of veggies, fruits, whole
grains, lean meats/dairy, nuts/seeds, spices and teas.

I've also seen a lot of diets come and go. The popular diets weave
some truth inbetween the bull. They hook you with the truth and hope
you follow the bull long enough to buy their diet book (looked at one
this weekend -- the book cost $29.95, and according to scam artist... I
mean author, he's sold 3 million copies. Do the math. Not a bad take,
huh?) vitamin pills or supplements. These diets are all a scam to make
money. The truth isn't rocket science, it's out already out there, and
it shouldn't cost you a thing.

Patrick

Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in part:

Quote:

The combination of sloth and abundance is deadly. And diets centered on flour heaps
on the injury.

Agreed, but enriched/non-whole-grain flour.

Quote:

Things are improving in the supermarkets. Whole-grains are getting
more popular by the day (I remember back when you couldn't find any
whole grain-products (expect in health food stores). Organic is now
huge, grass fed beef and even things like buffalo meat are available.
Things are a changin'... finally.

You'd do better if you could/would buy from local farms.

Quote:

But I've kept records. I gain weight when my carbs go up. I can lose it
pretty easily by watching the carbs. I watch the carbs by cutting out those
with a high glycemic load. It's not so complicated.

<snip>

Quote:

Ummm. Well. It depends on how you mean that. My records show that when I try
to substitute carbs for fat/protein, I eat more calories. So I say it's the
carbs.

Quote:

Is it even possible to eat enough fresh fruit that you'd become
overweight? I think you'd either become stuffed full or have the shits
long before you exceeded your caloric max for the day.

The problem comes with *flours*, which definitely make a very high-carb
diet possible. Some overweight people live mainly on flour products (mostly
white, yes) and high-fructose corn syrup. For some, toss in a gallon of
beer. The sausage and eggs they work in is probably to their benefit.

Quote:

Have you followed the randomized trials published in the past 5 or 6 years?
They tell me a bit of a different story. The fat in naturally-raised meat
and game is good for you. The CLA in dairy products from naturally-raised
cows is good for you. Despite being 100% fat, some olive oil is good for
you--or eat the whole olives. Fatty fish are good for you, even better than
lean fish, except that we have polluted the seas so much it may no longer be
and refined fish oil may be needed instead. Eggs are good for you,
particularly if they are from hens that aren't stuffed with n-6 grains. And
carbs at the high end of the glycemic scale are bad for you if you aren't
lean.

Quote:

NoOption5L@aol.com
medicine forum beginner

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 32

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

TC wrote:

Quote:

Give us your weight, waist, cardio ability, and details on your
exercise program.

Also, where did your philosophy on diet come from?

175 lbs. 5 ft 10 in. 34 waist. Well muscled, strong muscles in legs,
and solid upper body. I bike a few miles each week. Moderately active
otherwise. That's it for exercise.

Resting heart rate and body fat percentage? Mine, by the way, is about
11%.

Quote:

About 7 years ago I was getting close to 200 lbs by eating less meats
and fats and more grains and carbs. Got sick with a flu or cold at
least once every six weeks. Strep throat once in a while. Regular yeast
infections, along with the wife, who was also getting sickly like me
and she was getting heavier too. We cut fats and we cuts meats and we
ate more low-fat grains and low-fat milk and low-fat muffins and
low-fat pasta and low fat skinless chicken breasts etc etc.

When you write "low-fat grains" are you referring to whole grains? And
the "low-fat milk" was it skim? There is a difference.

Quote:

She borrowed a book called The Zone from a friend. I very reluctantly
read it and thought that it seemed to make some sense and we had
nothing to lose because eating less (fat) and exercising more did not
seem to be doing anything but making us fatter and sicker.

So we started the low carb way of life and each lost all our excess
weight, me in about 6 months, her in about a year (she had more to
lose). We never went hungry. My blood profile is now bang on normal. No
more colds, flus, medications, etc. Never been healthier. We eat fatty
foods all the time. Never skimp on it. Also we eat only real fats.
Tallow, lard, olive oil, butter. Eggs, bacon, fresh sausage, etc. Fresh
produce only. No processed crap. Real food. No margarine or shortening.

Obviously you made some improvement in your diet. Ever think there may
be room for more improvement?

Quote:

We eat like royalty. BBQ's, steaks, burgers, pork chops, fish, chicken
soup made from scratch, real butter, full fat milk, and full fat cream,
and full fat ice cream when we indulge.

I've read about the lard, tallow, full-fat dairy thing back in the late
70s/early 80s. However, the heart docs have never been for it. Too
much saturated fat, they say. For me personally, that stuff makes me
lathargic, so I've stayed with "convention thinking" and it has served
me well. Good luck on your approach.

Quote:

Meats and fats from healthy well reared animals is very very healthy. And we also eat > lots of salads and fresh produce. But we do not over indulge in sweet fruits.

Remember, bears pack on a lot of weight in a relatively short time by
eating a lot of berries in the spring, summer and fall.

Do you realize how many berries you'd have to eat for them to cause you
to gain weight?

Fruit is just so good tasting/for you; I couldn't imagine having to
limit its consumption.

Quote:

Modern fruits are not actually as nutrient dense as you would think.
Most have been bred and genetically modified by selective breeding to
be way sweeter than they were in the past, and in many cases that
process has diminished its nutrient content. And often they are bred
simply to be tougher so that they can ship better, again, with no
consideration for nutrition, and usually to its detriment. Then often
they are grown in nutrient deficient and highly chemically fertilized
soils.

Much the same can be said for the meat you're eating. It's pretty said
when you can now buy eggs that can brag about being laid by vegetarian
hens. And Mad Cow is caused by cows eating parts of/bone meal from
other cows. Mmmmm.

Have you ever seen inside a "meat factory"? It would likely scare you
so much you'd become a full-fledge vegetarian.

Quote:

Then often they are picked before ripening and before they reach
their peak in nutrition and forced to ripen in transit or in storage
where they lose a lot of their water soluble vitamin content.

The same with veggies.

Quote:

If you can reach out and pluck a piece of fruit right off the plant
when it it ripe and ready for picking, then you probably have good
nutrition. But if you go to the corner grocer and pick it off the
shelf, you have no idea what kind of conditions it was grown in and/or
how long it's been since it was picked, and a few days in transit or
storage can serious compromise its nutritional profile.

Yep, there's issues with most everything. Note: Meat -- Mad Cow, Bird
Flu, heavy metals, pesticides, and Salmonella.

Quote:

Have you ever directly compared the nutritional profiles of fruits
with the nutritional profiles of meats? Go check it out here:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

There isn't anything you get from meat that you can't get from produce,
and an occasional egg. And we're finding the subtle things -- like
antioxidants, phytochemicals, etc -- are as important as the big
vitamins -- A, B, C, D, E. So be sure to eat your blueberries and
pomegranates.

Also keep in mind the further up the food chain the concentrations of
pesticides, heavy metals, etc. increase.

And do you realize how much water/fed it takes to make a pound of beef?

I'm not saying don't eat meat. I'm only saying we don't need to eat
anywhere near the amount Americans consume.

Quote:

You will be absolutely amazed how meat kicks fruits butt when it comes
to nutrient density and variety. Meats are chock full of vitamins and
minerals. Both in the quantity of each vitamin and in the variety and
number of vitamins and minerals.

As I recall, the heavy on meat/cheese, dairy and lots of fat was big in
the 60s/70s when cancer/heart attack rates were off the charts. Was/is
there a correlation?

Patrick

Mr-Natural-Health
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1807

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

TC wrote:

Quote:

Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
TC wrote:

If you eat eggs and bacon and drink whole mlk, you won't need a mid
morning snack. You won't be hungry for 5 hrs or so.

John Harvey Kellogg, MD solved the problem of eating this crappy
breakfast over 100 years ago.

You should really keep up with the literature, TC. It is not all that
hard. If you were to stop complaining all the time, you would actually
have plenty of time to have a life.

Who says so? I do.

John Harvey Kellogg is the Father of Modern Food Industry Scammers and
Quacks.

John Harvey Kellogg, MD was the original Weston Price of the Wellness
movement in America.

And, I think that I will tell the world about who they should be
worshiping. It certainly is NOT Weston Price.

You have my condolences, Kook.

PS: You are confusing John with his brother Will. That makes you, an
Arse.

Who says so? I do.

NoOption5L@aol.com
medicine forum beginner

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 32

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

Jim Chinnis wrote:

Quote:

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in part:

The combination of sloth and abundance is deadly. And diets centered on flour heaps
on the injury.

Agreed, but enriched/non-whole-grain flour.

This seems to be the bone of contention between us. If you look up any
research on the glycemic response to "white" vs "whole grain" bread, you'll
discover almost no difference at all. This is because the "whole" grain has
been ground up into dust and the starch in the endosperm is available for
immediate conversion to glucose. it is the same in whole grain and branless,
germless flours!

The bran/fiber slows the digestion, does it not? So if you were to
grind a kernal of grain, with its bran/fiber, into flour the resulting
flour would have to be slower to digest, would it not?

Quote:

snip

Things are improving in the supermarkets. Whole-grains are getting
more popular by the day (I remember back when you couldn't find any
whole grain-products (expect in health food stores). Organic is now
huge, grass fed beef and even things like buffalo meat are available.
Things are a changin'... finally.

You'd do better if you could/would buy from local farms.

Agreed, as long as the local farms are following good growing
practices.

Quote:

But I've kept records. I gain weight when my carbs go up. I can lose it
pretty easily by watching the carbs. I watch the carbs by cutting out those
with a high glycemic load. It's not so complicated.

snip

I also exercise, before you ask. I cycle and walk a lot and I work out
almost every day at the gym. Despite that, I *still* pile on pounds if I eat
the usual recommended low-fat, high-carb diet. I've tried it.

Keep in mind it's the calories not the carbs.

Ummm. Well. It depends on how you mean that. My records show that when I try
to substitute carbs for fat/protein, I eat more calories. So I say it's the
carbs.

Recently, for about 6 months, I stopped running (due to circumstances,
not intentionally). With my lack of running and because I was just
lifting weights I bulked up to about 180. Following my normal, what
some would call high carb diet, and a return to running (I continued to
lift weights) I quickly/easily dropped more than 10 pounds. So that's
why I advocate: eat often, eat just enough to kill the hunger pains,
eat a large variety of foods, and eat the types of foods on that
webpage -- whfoods.com.

Quote:

Is it even possible to eat enough fresh fruit that you'd become
overweight? I think you'd either become stuffed full or have the shits
long before you exceeded your caloric max for the day.

The problem comes with *flours*, which definitely make a very high-carb
diet possible.

Yes, but I contend if they were eating foods made with whole-grain
flour, that takes more time to chew and digest, they wouldn't eat
nearly as much and get better nutrition. On the other hand, the pasty,
smooth white/enriched flour you can chew/eat so fast that before you
know it you've eaten a ton.

Quote:

Some overweight people live mainly on flour products (mostly
white, yes) and high-fructose corn syrup. For some, toss in a gallon of
beer.

lol

And that's just for breakfast. :-)

Quote:

The sausage and eggs they work in is probably to their benefit.

Eggs, yes. Sausage, no. That's stuff is nasty. It's ground up
whatever is left of the animal (same stuff they use to make dog food)
and treated with fillers/preservatives.

Quote:

And the research I've followed over the past six years shows I'm not unusual
in my response.

The research I've been following over the past 21 years has been saying
mostly the same things: a constant variety of veggies, fruits, whole
grains, lean meats/dairy, nuts/seeds, spices and teas.

Have you followed the randomized trials published in the past 5 or 6 years?
They tell me a bit of a different story. The fat in naturally-raised meat
and game is good for you. The CLA in dairy products from naturally-raised
cows is good for you. Despite being 100% fat, some olive oil is good for
you--or eat the whole olives. Fatty fish are good for you, even better than
lean fish, except that we have polluted the seas so much it may no longer be
and refined fish oil may be needed instead. Eggs are good for you,
particularly if they are from hens that aren't stuffed with n-6 grains.

Agreed, except for the fat in meat/game and dairy. Naturally-raised
meat and game is naturally lean; their normal activities and natural
diet minimizes the fat. Milk was meant for baby cows. Skimming off
the fat, that gives baby cows the calories to grow rapidly, is probably
a smart thing to do before human adults drink it.

Note: I don't follow low-fat. I eat nuts/seeds, vegetable oils, eggs,
and lean meats.

Quote:

And carbs at the high end of the glycemic scale are bad for you if you aren't
lean.

The research I follow says worrying about the glycemic index of
individual foods is a waste of time. That a meal/diet consisting
complex carbs, some fat and a little protein gives a nice hot, long
burning fuel for your body to run on.

Quote:

I've also seen a lot of diets come and go. The popular diets weave
some truth inbetween the bull. They hook you with the truth and hope
you follow the bull long enough to buy their diet book (looked at one
this weekend -- the book cost $29.95, and according to the scam artist... I
mean author, he's sold 3 million copies. Do the math. Not a bad take,
huh?) vitamin pills or supplements. These diets are all a scam to make
money. The truth isn't rocket science, it's already out there, and
it shouldn't cost you a thing.

I'm a consultant and do some work on the interpretation of research studies.
I don't buy diet books. I read the whole text of studies in reputable
journals (few and far between these days) and sometimes speak with the
researchers.

I'm just a nobody who reads a lot. And over the last twenty some years
I've found the basic advice of eating your fruits, veggies, some meat
and eggs, nuts/seeds, spices has never come and gone.

Patrick

Jim Chinnis
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1030

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in part:

Quote:

The bran/fiber slows the digestion, does it not? So if you were to
grind a kernal of grain, with its bran/fiber, into flour the resulting
flour would have to be slower to digest, would it not?

I'm not sure what you mean. And grains differ. But whole (intact) whole
grains are ok in my book. But "whole grain" flours, even "100 % whole grain"
are powders in which the "shell" or bran is pulverized and the carbohydrate
load (the part that is there to provide the calories needed by the new
plant) or endosperm is exposed (and itself powdered) to the metabolism which
converts it into glucose. Including the bran and the germ (the fatty part
that is critical and irreplacable to the development of the seedling) does
slow digestion a bit, but only a bit. It's still pretty much like drinking a
Coke in terms of the blood glucose rise.

Rye is unusual in that the endosperm itself is structured in a way that
makes it slower to digest. So it isn't as bad as "whole grain" wheat. The
whole *kernel* rye is very low in glycemic index, but--again--the whole
*grain* rye is only modestly better than the rye endosperm flour.

Now, there are definitely reasons to prefer whole grain products over
similar "white" ones. There is fiber, a host of phytonutrients, vitamin E,
and essential fatty acids. But the issue here was "carb cravings." Telling
someone who is overweight and chowing down on Twinkies and Wonder Bread to
switch to whole wheat isn't going to stop their cravings
and--consequently--their overeating. They are almost certainly insulin
resistant and switching from Wonder Bread to "100% whole wheat organic
Kosher" isn't going to help much. It's telling telling someone who is
pouring premium gasoline on a fire to switch to regular.

Quote:

I looked at the website. It's pretty good. My main issue with your advice
here is just the notion that whole (but not intact) grains will somehow
address the carb craving problem. Except for occasional pasta, which I
prefer in its adulterated, white form, I always choose whole grains. But
when I get too many carbs, I start to crave more. I gain weight and I could
eat a loaf of black Russian pumpernickel at one sitting, even if it is as
dense as a brick. It's the (processed, ground up) carbs!

Quote:

The problem comes with *flours*, which definitely make a very high-carb
diet possible.

Yes, but I contend if they were eating foods made with whole-grain
flour, that takes more time to chew and digest, they wouldn't eat
nearly as much and get better nutrition. On the other hand, the pasty,
smooth white/enriched flour you can chew/eat so fast that before you
know it you've eaten a ton.

I'm sure that has some effect, but a dense loaf of whole-grain bread isn't
going to faze someone with carb cravings.

Quote:

Some overweight people live mainly on flour products (mostly
white, yes) and high-fructose corn syrup. For some, toss in a gallon of
beer.

lol

And that's just for breakfast. Smile

....lunch and dinner.

Quote:

The sausage and eggs they work in is probably to their benefit.

Eggs, yes. Sausage, no. That's stuff is nasty. It's ground up
whatever is left of the animal (same stuff they use to make dog food)
and treated with fillers/preservatives.

Well, you can get anything either good or bad. I sometimes have sausage I
buy from a local "organic" farm. I've had buffalo sausage that was actually
very low in fat, and fabulous buffalo hot dogs!

Quote:

And the fat that is there is good for you.

Quote:

Milk was meant for baby cows. Skimming off
the fat, that gives baby cows the calories to grow rapidly, is probably
a smart thing to do before human adults drink it.

You're showing a bias. You could equally well remove all the sugars
(lactose). Are the fats really just calorie packages? I don't think so!

I get most of my dairy as cheese, and favor goat cheese and blue and such.

Quote:

Note: I don't follow low-fat. I eat nuts/seeds, vegetable oils, eggs,
and lean meats.

I think many of the insulin-resistant and diabetic folks got bad advice that
helped push them where they are. The advice was: "Low Fat." Combined with
their cars and appliances and avoidance of the gym, they didn't have a
chance. At least Olestra has passed from the scene.

Quote:

And carbs at the high end of the glycemic scale are bad for you if you aren't
lean.

The research I follow says worrying about the glycemic index of
individual foods is a waste of time. That a meal/diet consisting
complex carbs, some fat and a little protein gives a nice hot, long
burning fuel for your body to run on.

If you are lean and are going to "run." But if you are overweight with carb
cravings, it's bad advice.

Quote:

I'm a consultant and do some work on the interpretation of research studies.
I don't buy diet books. I read the whole text of studies in reputable
journals (few and far between these days) and sometimes speak with the
researchers.

I'm just a nobody who reads a lot. And over the last twenty some years
I've found the basic advice of eating your fruits, veggies, some meat
and eggs, nuts/seeds, spices has never come and gone.

I don't disagree with that. But don't forget coffee and chocolate.

(I am also a nobody who does a bit of research-related consulting.)
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu

TC
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 1814

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:25 am Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

Mr. Natural-Health wrote:

Quote:

TC wrote:
Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
TC wrote:

If you eat eggs and bacon and drink whole mlk, you won't need a mid
morning snack. You won't be hungry for 5 hrs or so.

John Harvey Kellogg, MD solved the problem of eating this crappy
breakfast over 100 years ago.

You should really keep up with the literature, TC. It is not all that
hard. If you were to stop complaining all the time, you would actually
have plenty of time to have a life.

Who says so? I do.

John Harvey Kellogg is the Father of Modern Food Industry Scammers and
Quacks.

John Harvey Kellogg, MD was the original Weston Price of the Wellness
movement in America.

Are you out of your mind? That is like comparing Edison the idiot
tinkerer with Tesla or DaVinci.

Kellogg did no research whatsoever, he just sold what was handy and
cheap to produce regardless of its effect on peoples healths.

Price wasn't selling anything to anyone. He freely gave all his
acquired knowledge to the world.

Quote:

And, I think that I will tell the world about who they should be
worshiping. It certainly is NOT Weston Price.

Who should it be? A brain damaged moron who eats too many bananas
before workouts?

Quote:

You have my condolences, Kook.

PS: You are confusing John with his brother Will. That makes you, an
Arse.

Who says so? I do.

Gohdiot.

Mr-Natural-Health
medicine forum Guru

Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1807

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: Note

Re: crave carbs

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:

Quote:

This seems to be the bone of contention between us. If you look up any
research on the glycemic response to "white" vs "whole grain" bread, you'll
discover almost no difference at all. This is because the "whole" grain has
been ground up into dust and the starch in the endosperm is available for
immediate conversion to glucose. it is the same in whole grain and branless,
germless flours!

The bran/fiber slows the digestion, does it not? So if you were to
grind a kernal of grain, with its bran/fiber, into flour the resulting
flour would have to be slower to digest, would it not?

Close, but you get no cigar!

Fiber does NOT digest. That is why it is called fiber. White flour
contains no bran. Therefore, white flour contains less fiber per ounce
and has accordingly a higher caloric value than whole grain does.

And, just as obviously the less processing the whole grain goes through
in processing the food product the healthier it is for you. As bigger
chunks of whole grain wheat take longer to digest than does very fine
powdered whole grains.

One healthier example, would be making pancakes with Old Fashion rolled
oats added to the flour.
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/food/whole-grains.html
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!

The nutrition of eating a healthy diet is a biological factor of the
mind-body connection. Now, weighing in at 18 web pages, the
Nutrition of a Healthy Diet is with more documentation and
sharper terminology than ever before.
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/food/

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