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2nd career as nurse
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guarnot
medicine forum addict


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Hospital collusion to maintain low pay for nurses Reply with quote

Quote:
This study agrees with Kurt--12.5%.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w4.526/DC1

At least this study is clear as to the source of its data....but what
it says is that the growth rate among foreign-born nurses was
12.5%--not that their overall percentage in the US workforce was 12.5%.

Quote:
But this article says 40% of US nurses are foreign born.

http://www.aarp.org/research/international/gra/gra_fall_2005/policy_forum.html

And it just throws out the statistic as fact--no source or
anything--but it's impressive enough to be used as a graphic in the
article.


..... as I said, the 3.5% figure (which does seem low) comes from the
National Sample Survey of Registered Nurses:

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/rnpopulation/preliminaryfindings.htm

Now, that figure is specifically for foreign-educated nurses, not all
foreign-born nurses.
I realize that CV or "Marcus" or whatever he calls himself these days
referred to "foreign-born" nurses. What many people miss when talking
about "foreign" nurses is the the US has many immigrants who went to
nursing school in the US after moving here. Take a look at nursing
students in New York or many other large cities--many are from
immigrant families--but that should have nothing to do with discussions
about internationally recruited nurses, or "imported" nursing care.
Since "Marcus" talks about the (inflated) numbers of "foreign-born"
nurses while ranting about conspiracy to keep US nurses' wages down,
etc.--as groundless as I think that is when discussing foreign-educated
nurses, it would make no sense at all if he includes foreign-born but
US-educated nurses.
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Renee
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Hospital collusion to maintain low pay for nurses Reply with quote

"Renee" <catcatcat@catcatcatcat.cat> wrote in message

Quote:
Golly, who would have thought that misogynist, elitist Anglophobe CV
Compton Shaw would have become a xenophobic Communist?

Of course I meant to say Anglophile. CV apparently thinks he's Bonnie
Prince Charlie or someone, and that it brings with it some sort of
innate superiority.
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Straydog
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 07 Aug 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject: Is Kamal really "TwistyCreek" ?...Re: India to supply nurses to USA Reply with quote

Kamal is constantly promoting India (see all quoted material at end) as if
the USA is total history, and quotes the current fad of offshoring
to--guess where--India, his home country (as if there are no other
sources for nurses, eg. Phillipines). Who is competitive? India is not
so competitive. Here is MY response:

---------------------------------------------------
Quotes from the "Financial Times" Thursday, May 11, 2006, page 4:
article title: "Nations close on competitive US"
by Francis Williams in Geneva

Quotes:

"The US is still the world's most competitive economy...the IMD business
school says in its latest competitiveness rankings."

The sidebar lists the top economies:

1. US
2. Hong Kong
3. Singapore
4. Iceland
5. Denmark
6. Australia
7. Canada
8. Switzerland
9. Luxembourg
10. Finland

Farther down the list: UK at 21, Germany at 26, France 35, Italy near the
bottom at 56. In the last year, China went from 31 to 19, India from 39 to
29, still very far down the list. Economies that went down: Taiwan (18
from 11) and S Korea (38 from 29).

"The IMD scorecard uses 312 criteria" over a very broad range of factors.


=====================
On Tue, 3 Jul 2006, Kamal R. Prasad wrote:

Quote:

Old Pif wrote:

TwistyCreek wrote:

Zilberberg said that a 14- month training would be given to the nurses with one year experience and they would be appointed in American hospitals with an approximate salary of Rs 18 lakh per year.

Vinod Sankaran, director, GS3, said the staffing solutions company would provide training to nurses at a nominal fee of Rs 5,000. The company was planning to send at least 200 nurses to the USA in the next 14 months. He also said GS3 was holding talks with nurses training institutes and hospitals to forge formal tie-ups.


Here is the thing: nursing is a licensed profession in the US. And it
is the law, which means practicing without license is a criminal
offence. Which means that the Indian Zondercommand MUST get licensed
before touching an American ass. How they go aroung it?

I don't know what Zondercommand means -but to answer your question,
the same way Indians with phony degree certs or crash course training
managed to get around the requirement for qualified professionals. Its
not that employers are cursing themselves for slecting those with
dubious qualifications. They actually want more of it coz in the end
-it is getting the job done that matters, not the regulations -which
were devised BEFORE anyone thought of massive human imports from
India/Philly etc. On another note, here is a gloomy forecast for you at
money.cnn.com:-
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Blinder on U.S. competitiveness
Princeton economist Alan Blinder gave a talk on U.S. competitiveness
this afternoon. His main point was that the offshoring of services to
English-speaking countries with lower wages (India, mostly) is a much
bigger deal than most academic economists allow. "The potential shift
is massive--dwarfing anything we have seen in recent years. Not
dwarfing the industrial revolution, though."

The shift in the U.S. labor force, Blinder said, will be away from
services that can be performed remotely (and thus will done where wages
are lower), and toward those that demand a personal touch. So instead
of skilled workers making more money and low-skilled workers losing
out, as has happened over the past few decades, the divide between
winners and losers will be more complicated. Brain surgeons and child
care workers will do fine; call-center workers and computer programmers
won't.

And college professors? "I'd like to think university teaching would be
degraded substantially by remote delivery," Blinder said. "But in my
heart of hearts I'm not sure the next generation of American academics
won't be replaced by lecturers in Bangalore."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To add to who will win, the US is graduating more massage specialists
than engineers and is all set to be the massage capital of the world.
Thats one job that cannot be outsourced -and american blondes have a
comparative advantage to retaining their jobs on this one.

regards
-kamal

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Straydog
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 07 Aug 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: India to supply nurses to USA Reply with quote

cross posted to "sci.med.nursing" (as well as sci.research.careers) in the
hopes someone there could give us more background.

On Mon, 3 Jul 2006, Old Pif wrote:

Quote:

TwistyCreek wrote:

Zilberberg said that a 14- month training would be given to the nurses with one year experience and they would be appointed in American hospitals with an approximate salary of Rs 18 lakh per year.

Vinod Sankaran, director, GS3, said the staffing solutions company would provide training to nurses at a nominal fee of Rs 5,000. The company was planning to send at least 200 nurses to the USA in the next 14 months. He also said GS3 was holding talks with nurses training institutes and hospitals to forge formal tie-ups.


Here is the thing: nursing is a licensed profession in the US. And it
is the law, which means practicing without license is a criminal
offence. Which means that the Indian Zondercommand MUST get licensed
before touching an American ass. How they go aroung it?


I can think of two things (but I'm not sure). First, there may be a
provisional licensing where they can be hired in an environment where
there will be a licensed manager/supervisor (this happens all the time in
psychology and counseling where a person _has to_ get practical experience
under a mentor who is licensed [according to my wife], in the context of
internships [Rob should be the one to tell us more about this]). Second,
there may be some work functions that do not need licensing, and the
person hired would be placed into those jobs that delivered those
functions.

Certainly it is a question in my mind when hospital work, including
transcription of audio into typed reports, and having Indian MDs "read"
X-rays for cheap radiology reports, as to whether such a "segmented"
function requires a licence. I doubt that all those Indian MDs (are they
really MDs?) are licensed in the USA to practice in the USA.

I also know that there are a large number of Phillipinos coming to the USA
to teach (I also think under restrictive visas) and I'm sure they don't
have licenses to teach. I seem to recall that there is also some
"intern-like" options by which one gets the real teaching experience
needed before one takes the test and presents credentials (whatever they
might be) for licensure.

And, I've read a couple of articles about getting Mexicans up here now
that they are teaching more english down there, too. More competition for
Kamal Prasad?
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Jan
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 250

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Hospital collusion to maintain low pay for nurses Reply with quote

I posted that yahoo article at work. It was promptly removed when the
manager walked in on Monday............Censorship is alive and well in NC.


"Marcus Aurelius" <alexander26a@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151523120.370202.67890@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
I attempted to reply to this post but was forced to utelize a new post.
This is the reply that I made to this original post:

Thank you for the post. According to communist theory, capitalist
societies tend to take an oppressive and predatory attitude towards
those skilled workers who have the most unpleasant jobs. The oppressive

attitude and predatory tactics are proportional to the requisite skill,

training, and unpleasentness of the job.
Why do capitalist societies do the same? Because they want to keep
wages, working conditions, and job security low.
With 40% of nurses in the USA now foreign born, it can be readily be
seen that health care employers, with the assistance of government,
have taken extreme steps to maintain low wages, poor working
conditions, and poor job security for nurses.
I am definitely not a communist. In fact, I guess you could call me
part conservative and part libertarian. It is my opinion that the two
party "winner take all" form of electoral representation in the USA is,

in part, responsible for the current poor labor conditions for workers
in the USA.
Therefore, the USA should replace it's "winner take all" form of
electoral representation with some form of "proportional electoral"
respresentation, if the American worker and the American people are to
have both economic and political justice.

Reply


End of messages
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Mr-Natural-Health
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1807

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:59 pm    Post subject: Florence Nightingale on Homeopathy Reply with quote

"Homeopathy has introduced one essential amelioration in the practice
of physic by amateur females; for its rules are excellent, its
physicking comparatively harmless--the "globule" is the one grain of
folly which appears to be necessary to make any good thing acceptable.
Let then women, if they will give medicine, give homeopathic medicine.
It won't do any harm."
_Notes on Nursing_ 1859 by Florence Nightingale

I think that Florence Nightingale will be my next subject for a
wellness web page. Her prescriptive on nursing is everything that it
is NOT today. She will be the first female covered by me. Nightingale
ended up selling out her beliefs on holistic nursing in her pursuit of
professionalizing nursing;
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/tutorials/
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tadchem
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Florence Nightingale on Homeopathy Reply with quote

Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
Quote:
"Homeopathy has introduced one essential amelioration in the practice
of physic by amateur females; for its rules are excellent, its
physicking comparatively harmless-

If a "comparatively harmless" but ineffectual treatment (such as the
'psychic surgery' that was so recently practiced in the Philippines)
delays or replaces a treatment which has demonstrable effectiveness
(such as real surgery), is it truly harmless?

I ask because I have had several traumatic injuries (i.e. deep cuts,
bone fractures) in my life which would not have been responsive to
homeopathic treatments, but which would have been far worse had I not
obtained surgical treatment.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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Mr-Natural-Health
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1807

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Florence Nightingale on Homeopathy Reply with quote

tadchem wrote:

Quote:
Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
"Homeopathy has introduced one essential amelioration in the practice
of physic by amateur females; for its rules are excellent, its
physicking comparatively harmless-

If a "comparatively harmless" but ineffectual treatment (such as the
'psychic surgery' that was so recently practiced in the Philippines)
delays or replaces a treatment which has demonstrable effectiveness
(such as real surgery), is it truly harmless?

I ask because I have had several traumatic injuries (i.e. deep cuts,
bone fractures) in my life which would not have been responsive to
homeopathic treatments, but which would have been far worse had I not
obtained surgical treatment.

A true tragedy, I am sure. But, I truly believe that Florence
Nightingale died a long time ago.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Quote:
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

My condolences for you living in such a hick town. Sad
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tadchem
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Florence Nightingale on Homeopathy Reply with quote

Doc John wrote:

Quote:
A true tragedy, I am sure. But, I truly believe that Florence
Nightingale died a long time ago.

?????

Quote:

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

My condolences for you living in such a hick town. Sad

An ad hominem attack (albeit a gently facetious one)...
A diversion - a rhetorical device to cover for the lack of a revelant
counterargument.
Your concession has been noted.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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Mr-Natural-Health
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1807

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Florence Nightingale on Homeopathy Reply with quote

tadchem wrote:
Quote:
Doc John wrote:

A true tragedy, I am sure. But, I truly believe that Florence
Nightingale died a long time ago.

?????


Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

My condolences for you living in such a hick town. :(

An ad hominem attack (albeit a gently facetious one)...
A diversion - a rhetorical device to cover for the lack of a revelant
counterargument.
Your concession has been noted.

Only a dumb f*** would go to a homeopath to have his bones set. And,
dumb fucks have a very bad habit of dying young. I wonder why?

Ha, ... Hah, Ha! It is hard for me to take fundamentally stupid
comments seriously.

Here is another bit of departing wisdom. If you don't want to get
mugged, don't watch the 4th of July Fireworks display at night.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
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Vakker
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: Florence Nightingale on Homeopathy Reply with quote

tadchem <tadchem@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1152305998.131898.70840@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
"Homeopathy has introduced one essential amelioration in the practice
of physic by amateur females; for its rules are excellent, its
physicking comparatively harmless-

If a "comparatively harmless" but ineffectual treatment (such as the
'psychic surgery' that was so recently practiced in the Philippines)
delays or replaces a treatment which has demonstrable effectiveness
(such as real surgery), is it truly harmless?

I ask because I have had several traumatic injuries (i.e. deep cuts,
bone fractures) in my life which would not have been responsive to
homeopathic treatments, but which would have been far worse had I not
obtained surgical treatment.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

It sounds like you have a bone in your head. Is that the one you
fractured?




>
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Vakker
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Florence Nightingale on Homeopathy Reply with quote

tadchem <tadchem@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1152365826.892206.293660@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

Doc John wrote:

A true tragedy, I am sure. But, I truly believe that Florence
Nightingale died a long time ago.

?????


Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

My condolences for you living in such a hick town. :(

An ad hominem attack (albeit a gently facetious one)...
A diversion - a rhetorical device to cover for the lack of a revelant
counterargument.
Your concession has been noted.


You're sounding more like a twit all the time. You did fracture that
bone in your head after all, didn't you?
Quote:

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Florence Nightingale on Homeopathy Reply with quote

Pre-FDA many traditional remedies (both European and AmerIndian)
were listed in the US Dispensatory, precursor to USP, US Pharmacopoieia

There was immense "snake oil" at the time, but some good remedies were
no doubt thrown out with the bad.

Many herbal remedies may work but have unpredictable dosages.

In the 1950s, the ability of pharmacists to give
"behind the counter" drugs was seriously curtailed;
but this still exists in many countries.

- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Reagan Mozart Pindus BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Yellary Clinton & Yellalot Spitzer: Nasty Together]
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vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Florence Nightingale on Homeopathy Reply with quote

*+-An ad hominem attack (albeit a gently facetious one)...

Learn the difference between ad_hominem and ad_personam.

Ad Hominem is a reference to general knowledge.
("Everyone knows that..")

Ad Personam is attacking the argument by attacking its bearer



- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Reagan Mozart Pindus BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Yellary Clinton & Yellalot Spitzer: Nasty Together]
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tadchem
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Florence Nightingale on Homeopathy Reply with quote

vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
Quote:
*+-An ad hominem attack (albeit a gently facetious one)...

Learn the difference between ad_hominem and ad_personam.

Ad Hominem is a reference to general knowledge.
("Everyone knows that..")

Wrong:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html
"A debater commits the Ad Hominem Fallacy when he introduces irrelevant
personal premisses about his opponent."
The "Everyone knows that..." fallacy is known as the argumentum ad
populum
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/bandwagn.html
although it may also be classified as an argumentum ad verecundiam
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/authorit.html

Quote:
Ad Personam is attacking the argument by attacking its bearer

Partially correct.
The personal attack on the opponent is in general an ad hominem attack.
The ad personam attack is merely a specific sub-type of the ad hominem
attack, one which is specifically abusive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Other subtypes of the ad hominem attack are the "Ad hominem
circumstantial" which 'poisons the well be attempting to disqualify the
opponents opinions as biased, and the "ad hominem tu quoque" which
irrelevantly refers to hypocrisy.

The persistence of these fallacies is a testament to their
effectiveness as rhetorical devices in spite of their fallacious
nature.

The general ignorance of their nature (let alone their detailed
taxonomy) is a testament to the fact that most of us (vainly) consider
ourselves more than competent at logic despite our ignorance of the
subject. Even people who couldn't understand a proof of the Pythagorean
Theorem somehow consider themselves skilled at logic.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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