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2nd career as nurse
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Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Campaign launched against dietary supplements Reply with quote

"Robert" <RobertJ@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:i8adnVOTMt7y553fRVn-vw@got.net...
Quote:

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:7fTLd.215$R14.108@fe08.lga...

"Robert" <RobertJ@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:QrudnVoZvZXAW2LcRVn-qw@got.net...

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:ScMLd.155$0T7.147@fe08.lga...

"Anth" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:41fdd706$0$105$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net...
Well first of all you called him a fraud while pushing your
thalidomide
'cure' for mm. (and again later on)

Utterly irrelevant to your claims about me. I call him a fraud
because
he
SELLS his experimental treatments.

You have no evidence that he's a fraud, he's doing research to see
if
the
therapy works, so you explain how scientific research is fraud?

He is selling his EXPERIMENTAL treatments to his customers, a/k/a
guinea
pigs. REAL medical research is conducted at no financial cost to the
patient. They are evem compensated for their time and travel
expenses.

Drug research is sponsored by the drug companies and "uses" patients
to
provide clinical trials that is then used to sell their drugs. The
payoff
comes later and you and I pay through insurance premiums. Nothing is
free
in
this world and to say that their is no cost is laughable.
You either have it pay as you go or pay later for any research period.

When the patient pays directly for the research, it is bogus research,
as
there is no proof of efficacy.

You and I are the patients and everybody pays for the research done by
drug
companies which is in the millions to get a drug approved. It makes it no
more bogus for the drug companies to do it their own research that they
will
make millions and billions on. People doing research on their own don't
have
the resources that the billion dollar companies do.

I am referring to the patient paying directly for unproven treatment. Not
what you are bleating about.

Quote:


Anth

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:kO6Ld.4770$kU3.1801@fe08.lga...

"Anth" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:41fc5892$0$120$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net...
Well you are your ilk are responsible for causing doctors
problems,

My "ILK"? Sounds like an ad hominem directed at me....

Now, I asked you (see below) to tel lme what sort of problems I
am
causing
these doctors. You meerely rephrased the statement without
listing
them.

with
your flawed arguments and ad hominems.

Asking that they proved their claims is NOT an ad hominem.
Pointing
out
that
they went from initial idea directly to selling is not an ad
hominem,
merely
pointing out that they are having their
customers...errr...guinea
pigs....errr...customers...finance the testing for them. My
arguments
are
far from flawed.

What reason have you possibly got for attacking Dr Gonzalez who
is
trying
to
do real science with a therapy he believes is worthy of merit?.

Fraud revolts me.

Anth









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Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Campaign launched against dietary supplements Reply with quote

That would never silence anyone, let alone me.

Jan plonked me, and I continued to point out her bigotry and fallacies.


"Anth" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:420073a3$0$102$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net...
Quote:
simple *plonk*

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:nKOLd.176$ey1.81@fe08.lga...

"Anth" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:41ffa31a$0$121$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net...
I could silence you if I wished.

And how would you do that?

Anth

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:teMLd.157$PE7.76@fe08.lga...
Why do you want to silence me?


"Anth" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:41fdd719$0$114$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net...
Bullshit.
Anth

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:JO6Ld.4771$MZ3.1610@fe08.lga...
Since I am right, I will keep posting the truth.









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bob
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: GUY MACON - NO COLLEGE DEGREE (guymacon, pseudo-engineer) Reply with quote

PGG wrote:

Quote:
The OP is asking for a libel/slander lawsuit (yes, I know there is a
difference but I don't know what it is Wink

speech > slander
writing > libel

That's the only difference
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John Que
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Campaign launched against dietary supplements Reply with quote

"Anth" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:420073a3$0$102$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net...
Quote:
simple *plonk*


Finally

Mark P is a plonk
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hi me
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: anuerysm Reply with quote

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:53:46 +0000, Andrew Heenan wrote:

Quote:
"backbeatone" ...
If a patient has elected not to fix an aneurysm, after being fully
informed of the risks, what would happen in the emergency room, should
the patient show up, with evidence that the thing has ruptured?. Given
that these can be repaired after rupture, would ER staff stabilize the
patient who was losing consciouness and perform emergent surgery, or
would they let the patient die?

He can always change his mind, can't he?

No, he can't "always" change his mind. That's the point and the problem.
During neurogenic shock, you can't change your mind. The Advance Directive
speaks for you. If a patient does manage to "change his mind" regarding
the directive, but can't voice his wishes, well, that's worst-case
scenario I guess...
While healthy, one can change one's mind about what's in the AD.
They also better make sure all existing copies get changed in that case.
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Andrew Heenan
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: anuerysm Reply with quote

"hi me" <me@the.net> wrote ...
Quote:
He can always change his mind, can't he?

No, he can't "always" change his mind. That's the point and the
problem. During neurogenic shock, you can't change your mind.
The Advance Directive speaks for you. If a patient does manage
to "change his mind" regarding the directive, but can't voice his
wishes, well, that's worst-case scenario I guess... While healthy,
one can change one's mind about what's in the AD. They also
better make sure all existing copies get changed in that case.

Sorry, I didn't get the neurogenic shock bit.

So he cannot change his mind at that time; so it's important to have an
advance directive - and important to review it regularly.

In this case, if he didn't want the procedure while well, it seems unlikely
he'd want it in the emergency situation, with the much, much, much greater
risk.

But that's possible.

Advance Directives have reduced the chance of misunderstandings, but nothing
short of telepathy can eliminate them entirely.

Could the advance directive be set to expire after a set time if not
reviewed?
(I'm guessing that your wish is to proceed regardless)
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Norminn
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: anuerysm Reply with quote

clipped
Quote:

I don't know how i feel about elective aneurysm repair.

I know someone at present who elected to get a repair, and is in WORSE
SHAPE now than ever. She may be permanently messed. :(

Perhaps most go well, but surgical complications CAN happen.

Make the decisions carefully, surrounding this -- with full informed
consent.

Absolutely! Especially the fully informed consent. It is a major
procedure, difficult to do, and often has an op site not in best
condition. If the father is thinking it will be "over" quick if the
aneurysm ruptures, he COULD be right. I've seen lots of sons and
daughters try to push parents to a particular decision. I am very, very
glad that I did not influence my mom's decision about treating her final
illness. Knowing now how it proceeded, I would not make the same choice
that she did, but only because of the experience that she had. One
really never knows.
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Norminn
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: anuerysm Reply with quote

Andrew Heenan wrote:
Quote:
"backbeatone" ...

If a patient has elected not to fix an aneurysm, after being fully
informed of the risks, what would happen in the emergency
room, should the patient show up, with evidence that the thing
has ruptured?. Given that these can be repaired after rupture,
would ER staff stabilize the patient who was losing consciouness
and perform emergent surgery, or would they let the patient die?

Rupture of aortic aneurysm has degrees - death can be immediate, or not.

Quote:


He can always change his mind, can't he?

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drlaibow
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: The Conspiracy Against VITAMIN C Revealed Reply with quote

Please be aware that the conspiracy is not just against Vitamin C. It
is against ALL natural healing techniques and is clearly designed to
eliminate all natural healing options. CODEX ALIMENTARIUS is the
ultimate tool for this health freedom supression. It has already
passed in the EU, Australia and Canada. Don't let it pass here! Write
to your senators and respresenatives in Washington telling them that
you will not re-elect anyone who votes for any restriction to our
health freedoms.. DO NOT EMAIL THEM: write or fax them. To find out
who they are, go saveoursupplements.org, type in your zip code and
their names will appear. To find out what their fax numbers are, do a
search for "Congressional Fax" and go to the site that comes up. Click
on your Senator's and Representative's names and send them a fax.
TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW to do the same and help them if they cannot do
it for themselves.
If you would like more information about the Natural Solution
Foundation and would like to support our work with either time, money
or talent, please contact me at healthfreedom@optonline.net.
Remember, it can happen here, and it will if you don't stop it!
Yours in health and freedom,
Rima E. Laibow, MD

john wrote:
Quote:
The Conspiracy Against VITAMIN C Revealed
http://www.vitamincproject.com/
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Robert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1700

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Campaign launched against dietary supplements Reply with quote

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:IC5Md.282$pl5.278@fe08.lga...
Quote:
companies which is in the millions to get a drug approved. It makes it
no
more bogus for the drug companies to do it their own research that they
will
make millions and billions on. People doing research on their own don't
have
the resources that the billion dollar companies do.

I am referring to the patient paying directly for unproven treatment. Not
what you are bleating about.

All clinical trials are unproven and as to who pays for those trials, we
all do.

Quote:



Anth

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:kO6Ld.4770$kU3.1801@fe08.lga...

"Anth" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:41fc5892$0$120$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net...
Well you are your ilk are responsible for causing doctors
problems,

My "ILK"? Sounds like an ad hominem directed at me....

Now, I asked you (see below) to tel lme what sort of problems
I
am
causing
these doctors. You meerely rephrased the statement without
listing
them.

with
your flawed arguments and ad hominems.

Asking that they proved their claims is NOT an ad hominem.
Pointing
out
that
they went from initial idea directly to selling is not an ad
hominem,
merely
pointing out that they are having their
customers...errr...guinea
pigs....errr...customers...finance the testing for them. My
arguments
are
far from flawed.

What reason have you possibly got for attacking Dr Gonzalez
who
is
trying
to
do real science with a therapy he believes is worthy of
merit?.

Fraud revolts me.

Anth











Back to top
Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Campaign launched against dietary supplements Reply with quote

"Robert" <RobertJ@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3bidnfUSL5kHo5zfRVn-1Q@got.net...
Quote:

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:IC5Md.282$pl5.278@fe08.lga...
companies which is in the millions to get a drug approved. It makes it
no
more bogus for the drug companies to do it their own research that
they
will
make millions and billions on. People doing research on their own
don't
have
the resources that the billion dollar companies do.

I am referring to the patient paying directly for unproven treatment.
Not
what you are bleating about.

All clinical trials are unproven and as to who pays for those trials, we
all do.

So? Someone has to pay for them and the patient is not charged directly. In
fact, many of the clinical trials reimburse patients for their time and out
of pocket expenses.

The charlatans charge directly. Do they warn the patient that their
"treatment" is experimental? I do know that the patient in a clinical trial
is. Some can do it better, though.

And that is the BIG difference.
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ironjustice@aol.com
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1522

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Theophylline / asthma / erythropoietin Reply with quote

Well SINCE theophylline IS used to decrease erythropoieitn .. and
since erythropoeitin reduction leads to decreased red blood cells ..
one might think then .. BEFORE the INTRODUCTION .. of .. theophylline
... there IS a .. higher than .. wished .. number of .. red blood cells
...

Logic ..

'They' have a VERY large 'window' in which they have decided whether
one HAS .. 'too many red blood cells / erythrocytosis' and this is
governed by .. cash.

If one raises the 'marker' high enough then the medical profession is
NOT .. 'bound' .. to have a medical test / cash .. DONE in order to
rule out .. too many red blood cells .. and therefore they rule OUT
what 'they' consider to be .. 'false positives' ..

NOW it seems what they consider to BE .. false positives .. could VERY
WELL BE .. you .. since you HAVE .. asthma ..

So since they consider you NOT to 'have' .. too many red blood cells ..
BUT .. you STILL have asthma .. NOW has them saying .. it is NOT .. too
many red blood cells which is CAUSING your asthma .. when IN FACT .. it
... is ..

Evidenced BY .. the use / efficacy of USING a .. drug .. WHICH ..
lowers the red blood cell .. count ..

Logic .. ?

Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
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Robert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 1700

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Campaign launched against dietary supplements Reply with quote

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:QecMd.340$qp1.296@fe08.lga...
Quote:

"Robert" <RobertJ@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3bidnfUSL5kHo5zfRVn-1Q@got.net...

"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:IC5Md.282$pl5.278@fe08.lga...
companies which is in the millions to get a drug approved. It makes
it
no
more bogus for the drug companies to do it their own research that
they
will
make millions and billions on. People doing research on their own
don't
have
the resources that the billion dollar companies do.

I am referring to the patient paying directly for unproven treatment.
Not
what you are bleating about.

All clinical trials are unproven and as to who pays for those trials,
we
all do.

So? Someone has to pay for them and the patient is not charged directly.
In
fact, many of the clinical trials reimburse patients for their time and
out
of pocket expenses.

Paid out of the direct pocket of those patients paying high drug costs with
new drugs. Don't tell me that insurance pays, yes but it is out of premiums
that keep on raising because of the high cost of meds.
Sure, nobody pays for those reimbursed patients by the drug companies. What
kind of drugs are you on?

Quote:

The charlatans charge directly. Do they warn the patient that their
"treatment" is experimental? I do know that the patient in a clinical
trial
is. Some can do it better, though.

And that is the BIG difference.

Drug companies can afford to do it indirectly and transfer the cost.
Individuals can not do this.

Quote:


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Mark Probert
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Campaign launched against dietary supplements Reply with quote

"Anth" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:420073f8$0$105$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net...
Quote:
"Mark Probert" <Mark Probert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:YJOLd.175$2h1.50@fe08.lga...

"Anth" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:41ffa2f2$0$118$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net...

Big deal he sells stuff, so what difference does that make?

In Real Medicine, the patient is not the person who finances the
experiments. His practice is like charging the gineua pigs rent on their
cages.

Yeah and people are getting well on his treatment.

So he claims. Where is the independent verification? Anecdotes do not count.

Quote:
Furthermore, I wonder whether the patient is advised that the treatment
is
*experimental* and unproven as to safety and efficacy.

A point you failed to address.

Quote:
A lot of doctors sell stuff including their skills, and he probably
doesn't
make any profit on the enzymes as he spent 1 million developing them.

I wonder where that information, i.e., how much he spent, came from. As
for
not making a profit, have you examined his balance sheets?

He's no fraud..

There is NO evidence to suggest otherwise, and there are too many
unanswered
questions.

All are is a critic all you can do is name call and ad hominem.
You don't even know the guy.

Not knowing him is irrelevant. I see what is posted on the internet by him
and his sycophants, and that is enough to tell me what he is all about.
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Rob
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Numbing for Peripheral IV Cannulation Reply with quote

I wanted to thank everyone for responding to my post on Numbing for
Peripheral IV starts. I looked into this practice some years back and
I was trying to update my information.

To reveal my own bias, I'm a big advocate of numbing for PIVs.
There've been a few dozen research studies in nursing and medical
journals over that last 15 years or so on local anesthesia for PIV
starts and I can't recall a single one that didn't endorse the
practice. Studies focusing on one or more of the common objections to
numbing concluded they didn't hold up in their trials (eg success rates
were not diminished by a lido wheal). Most patients in these studies
rated PIV sticks as painful and thought it was better to be numbed in
one way or another than to be stuck without numbing.

On the other hand even though we're allowed to use lido for this
purpose on my unit few RNs except me do, and for all the reasons
usually given.

Thanks again!

Rob
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