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Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies?
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GMCarter
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

On Tue, 9 May 2006 09:35:08 +0100, Tim Fitzmaurice
<tjf11@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

snip...
Quote:
A hopeful but somewhat unlikely thought. The disease doesn't cause so
much trouble (tho lesions may facilitate infections like HIV).

Its a very likely thought actually. Lots of people have tried to produce
HSV vaccines. Its just not been successful yet.

Actually, I saw some of the research, and it was rather encouraging.
There are times when I think the whole business has gotten so corrupt
that absolutely nothing that won't guarantee a huge multi-billion
dollar return for the stockholders and CEOs will be ignored.

The situation hasn't QUITE gotten there yet.

George M. Carter
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Tim Fitzmaurice
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

On Sat, 6 May 2006, GMCarter wrote:

Quote:
On 6 May 2006 05:48:44 -0700, Banty <Banty_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

snip...
I think if it were feasible, there would be a vaccine for HSV already.

A hopeful but somewhat unlikely thought. The disease doesn't cause so
much trouble (tho lesions may facilitate infections like HIV).

Its a very likely thought actually. Lots of people have tried to produce
HSV vaccines. Its just not been successful yet.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568
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GMCarter
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

On 7 May 2006 18:58:03 -0700, cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com wrote:

Quote:
By the way, they are working on a vaccine for herpes, see "New vaccine
prevents herpes in women"
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/11/20/herpes.vaccine/

Thanks for sharing this. Interesting that this article is 3.5 years
old....and my quick search of PubMed didn't yield this although I
could have missed it. The article notes it'll be a while before the
vaccine is through its current trial.

Fascinating and peculiar that it only worked in women! I wonder why?
But great too, since the people at the most threat from genital herpes
are neonates.

Thanks for sharing this and your ideas.

George M. Carter
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cool@pattayacitythailand.
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

Angela S. wrote:
Quote:
That is not how the herpes simplex virus works

Angela


From: http://www.herpes.com/hsv1-2.html

"Studies show that genital HSV-1 infections almost always occur in
people who have no prior infection with HSV of either type (Corey,
Annals of Internal Medicine, 1983). "

Thus suggesting that both HSV-1 orally & HSV-2 genitally offer
protection against contracting HSV-1 genitally.

I was not yet considering infecting myself, I was just promoting this
idea as a think-outside-the-box concept for general discussion. I got
the idea that you gain immunity from further infection in part from
reading the following usenet messages on alt.support.herpes:

According to M2slo2cht:

"And once you're infected and
develop antibodies, you're not likely to be infected again. One thing
to remember, if you're newly infected (and we haven't established that
yet) be careful about touching an outbreak and then touching your eyes
before you wash your hands. You don't want it in your eyes. After
you've developed antibodies, your not likely to spread it to other
parts of your body though. "
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.herpes/browse_frm/thread/d72a143ee07a7358/6aa80c0f69f863c3?q=spread+after+your+body+has+developed+antibodies&rnum=3#6aa80c0f69f863c3


"1) HSV2 won't spread through your system on it's own. *If* it spreads

at all, it needs your help (autoinoculation) for that. If you have it
genitally, it stays "below the belt". Doesn't spread to your face.
(Autoinoculation=you touch infected area, get virus on your fingers,
then touch another area, and it might possibly take hold. *But* this
doesn't happen often after your body has developed antibodies) "
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.herpes/browse_frm/thread/6bdad25d397fd61f/83df70a3cafdad55?q=spread+after+your+body+has+developed+antibodies&rnum=1#83df70a3cafdad55


"I agree again here. But want to add a caveat. During the first few
months of infection, before your immune system is fully braced for
this virus, you're subject to autoinnoculation. In other words, it's
possible to pick up the virus on your hands/fingers in one location
and spread it to another location by scratching, rubbing, etc in the
other location. For instance, a newbie with type 1 oral might rub his
mouth getting virus on his fingers, then rub his genitals and spread
the virus there. So wash your hands whenever you may have gotten them
on an infected area. Soap and water (washing hands) can easily kill
the virus.
After the first few months, autoinnoculation isn't something to worry
much about but just be aware of its existance for awhile. "
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.herpes/browse_frm/thread/26ff4c41b2a80e4e/7d8bc3647b62b849?q=spread+after+your+body+has+developed+antibodies&rnum=5#7d8bc3647b62b849


For if it were possible to infect yourself in one small place, I assume
you would only have minor symptoms as opposed to the possibility of a
larger infection. You would thus only have symptoms of a small
outbreak in one place, and you would not be able to pass the disease
onto other people's genitals or mouths.


By the way, they are working on a vaccine for herpes, see "New vaccine
prevents herpes in women"
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/11/20/herpes.vaccine/



Quote:
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Yahoo! Messenger - angelals1970

Herpes Help
http://www.yoshi2me.com/

STD Message Board
http://yoshi2me.com/phpbb/

My 360 Page
http://360.yahoo.com/yoshi2me/


After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
infection. Until you develop antibodies you may spread the infection.
Would it be possible to purposefully infect a very small patch of skin,
for instance, on the back of your arm above your elbow perhaps, so that
you would devlop antibodies, have very minor symptoms, and after 12-16
weeks be protected from ever contracting the disease elsewhere?
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GMCarter
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

On 6 May 2006 05:48:44 -0700, Banty <Banty_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

snip...
Quote:
I think if it were feasible, there would be a vaccine for HSV already.

A hopeful but somewhat unlikely thought. The disease doesn't cause so
much trouble (tho lesions may facilitate infections like HIV).

Pharma is more interested in me-too drugs, slight changes in
formulation (usually excipients) to extend patent life and other nudgy
shifts in the blockbuster, oversold, overprescribed and way-overpriced
drugs they like to shove down people's throats til their insurance
caps are maxed. Then those companies may take their turn screwing the
patient, taking up where over-charging hospitals and clinics leave
off. Healthcare in the US: a fucking mess.

George M. Carter
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Banty
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

In article <mk0p525j59ns6q8cogipmmvhcphorvjluu@4ax.com>, GMCarter says...
Quote:

On 5 May 2006 07:45:13 -0700, Banty <Banty_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

snip...
What, exactly, are you planning? Infecting yourself on some non-genital area
(such as the mouth) with HSV-1 and HSV-2 in hopes of sparing your genital area?
Or what?

Maybe the individual is confused by things like live varicella
vaccines. See, e.g.,
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/352/22/2271

What the individual does not understand is that this virus is
"attenuated" so that it doesn't cause disease.

Merely exposing oneself to a simplex virus is not too wise (but
chances are relatively good that the person already has HSV anyway).
The possibility that a low dose exposure may elicit adequate immunity
upon subsequent exposure with a higher innoculum is dicey at best.

In short, nice try but not likely to be a good idea.


I think if it were feasible, there would be a vaccine for HSV already.

Banty


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GMCarter
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

On 5 May 2006 07:45:13 -0700, Banty <Banty_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

snip...
Quote:
What, exactly, are you planning? Infecting yourself on some non-genital area
(such as the mouth) with HSV-1 and HSV-2 in hopes of sparing your genital area?
Or what?

Maybe the individual is confused by things like live varicella
vaccines. See, e.g.,
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/352/22/2271

What the individual does not understand is that this virus is
"attenuated" so that it doesn't cause disease.

Merely exposing oneself to a simplex virus is not too wise (but
chances are relatively good that the person already has HSV anyway).
The possibility that a low dose exposure may elicit adequate immunity
upon subsequent exposure with a higher innoculum is dicey at best.

In short, nice try but not likely to be a good idea.

George M. Carter
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Sex Flu Researcher
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

This is a science newsgroup dedicated to the study of hepatitis. Take
this discussion on out of here, else I'll have one of the gators strap
you down while I remove your liver and shove it up your ass. Got it,
herpes head?
Doctor Killborn
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Steve Pope
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:
I think it would be very difficult to infect yourself on the back of
your arm above your elbow. HSV likes warm moist places like your mouth
and genitals.

Actually, it can infect the fingers of doctors/nurses who have
examined patients without wearing gloves. It will also
infect the skin of wrestlers, where it has been called
"Herpes Gladiatoris".

Steve
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shinypenny
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com wrote:
Quote:
After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
infection. Until you develop antibodies you may spread the infection.
Would it be possible to purposefully infect a very small patch of skin,
for instance, on the back of your arm above your elbow perhaps,

I think it would be very difficult to infect yourself on the back of
your arm above your elbow. HSV likes warm moist places like your mouth
and genitals.


Quote:
so that
you would devlop antibodies, have very minor symptoms, and after 12-16
weeks be protected from ever contracting the disease elsewhere?

If you're worried about this, go out and get a blood test. Chances are
pretty good you're *already* infected with HSV-1, and maybe also even
HSV-2. Lots of people are asymptomatic.

jen
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-L.
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com wrote:
Quote:
After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
infection. Until you develop antibodies you may spread the infection.
Would it be possible to purposefully infect a very small patch of skin,
for instance, on the back of your arm above your elbow perhaps, so that
you would devlop antibodies, have very minor symptoms, and after 12-16
weeks be protected from ever contracting the disease elsewhere?

No. Once infected, the virus becomes systemic.

-L.
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Banty
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

In article <1146807954.252015.116120@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com says...
Quote:

Banty wrote:
In article <1146790801.417376.206140@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com says...

Banty wrote:
In article <1146774084.029864.267020@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com says...

After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
infection. Until you develop antibodies you may spread the infection.
Would it be possible to purposefully infect a very small patch of skin,
for instance, on the back of your arm above your elbow perhaps, so that
you would devlop antibodies, have very minor symptoms, and after 12-16
weeks be protected from ever contracting the disease elsewhere?


You may spread the infection even if you do have antibodies. Certainly during
a
symptomatic non-primary outbreak, or even if you're asymptomatic (or having a
sub-symptomatic outbreak). Not only during the primary infection.

That's not what I've read. I've read that after 12-16 weeks you are
generally immune to further infection. For instance, if you have oral
herpes HSV-1 on your mouth, then you will not be at risk for
contracting from someone else on your genitals through oral sex.

You dont' understand. Once you're infected, you're infected. The virus will
reside in your ganglia for further reactivation if/when the conditions are
right. There's no point in protecting yourself against "further infection" no
more than using contraceptives during pregnancy would protect yourself against
"further pregnancy".


I guess you can neither read nor understand simple concepts. When you
first get the virus and have an outbreak you are capable of infecting
yourself in other places, and spreading the infection. After you gain
antibodies this is no longer as possible.

What, exactly, are you planning? Infecting yourself on some non-genital area
(such as the mouth) with HSV-1 and HSV-2 in hopes of sparing your genital area?
Or what?

And you're wrong - a risk of HSV infection anywhere increases the risk of
introducing the virus where you really don't want it, like the eyes, or even the
meninges.

Please discuss your ideas with a physician. I think you're fishing for
confirmation of your ideas here.

There is no fix to this. You need to practice safe sex. (Or 'your' girls in
Thailand, or whatever else is your motivation you have in asking this.) Even if
HSV was taken off the menu of possible consequences of not doing so, there are a
lot of worse things out there still, believe me.

Banty


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Sue
medicine forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 Jun 2005
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

<cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com> wrote in message
Quote:
I guess you can neither read nor understand simple concepts. When you
first get the virus and have an outbreak you are capable of infecting
yourself in other places, and spreading the infection. After you gain
antibodies this is no longer as possible.

That is so not true. You need to do some research because once you have
Herpes, you always have it and you can have a break out at any time. It
lives in the ganglia in the spine. You can even infect another person
without an active outbreak.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
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cool@pattayacitythailand.
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

Banty wrote:
Quote:
In article <1146790801.417376.206140@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com says...

Banty wrote:
In article <1146774084.029864.267020@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com says...

After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
infection. Until you develop antibodies you may spread the infection.
Would it be possible to purposefully infect a very small patch of skin,
for instance, on the back of your arm above your elbow perhaps, so that
you would devlop antibodies, have very minor symptoms, and after 12-16
weeks be protected from ever contracting the disease elsewhere?


You may spread the infection even if you do have antibodies. Certainly during a
symptomatic non-primary outbreak, or even if you're asymptomatic (or having a
sub-symptomatic outbreak). Not only during the primary infection.

That's not what I've read. I've read that after 12-16 weeks you are
generally immune to further infection. For instance, if you have oral
herpes HSV-1 on your mouth, then you will not be at risk for
contracting from someone else on your genitals through oral sex.

You dont' understand. Once you're infected, you're infected. The virus will
reside in your ganglia for further reactivation if/when the conditions are
right. There's no point in protecting yourself against "further infection" no
more than using contraceptives during pregnancy would protect yourself against
"further pregnancy".


I guess you can neither read nor understand simple concepts. When you
first get the virus and have an outbreak you are capable of infecting
yourself in other places, and spreading the infection. After you gain
antibodies this is no longer as possible.


Quote:
HSV-1 generally is found around the mouth; HSV-2 generally around the genitals,
but not necessarily, and infection from one does not protect you from infection
with the other. Ganglia are local; people can and do get infected with both
types in two areas.


Although if you read the posted article you would discover that having
one does possibly lower the chance of getting the other in the same
place.


Quote:
There really is no *point* in pre-infecting yourself. It doesn't work that way.


Does it?


Quote:
You've put in a post to alt.support.herpes - that's a good group; you really
needn't be going to a parenting group and vaguely related medical groups (aids?
hepataitis?) and polyamory and sex groups about this.


If I didn't post elsewhere, I would have less chance of gaining
responses from people smarter than yourself....


Quote:
Banty


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Banty
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:55 am    Post subject: Re: Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies? Reply with quote

In article <1146790801.417376.206140@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com says...
Quote:

Banty wrote:
In article <1146774084.029864.267020@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com says...

After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
infection. Until you develop antibodies you may spread the infection.
Would it be possible to purposefully infect a very small patch of skin,
for instance, on the back of your arm above your elbow perhaps, so that
you would devlop antibodies, have very minor symptoms, and after 12-16
weeks be protected from ever contracting the disease elsewhere?


You may spread the infection even if you do have antibodies. Certainly during a
symptomatic non-primary outbreak, or even if you're asymptomatic (or having a
sub-symptomatic outbreak). Not only during the primary infection.

That's not what I've read. I've read that after 12-16 weeks you are
generally immune to further infection. For instance, if you have oral
herpes HSV-1 on your mouth, then you will not be at risk for
contracting from someone else on your genitals through oral sex.

You dont' understand. Once you're infected, you're infected. The virus will
reside in your ganglia for further reactivation if/when the conditions are
right. There's no point in protecting yourself against "further infection" no
more than using contraceptives during pregnancy would protect yourself against
"further pregnancy".

HSV-1 generally is found around the mouth; HSV-2 generally around the genitals,
but not necessarily, and infection from one does not protect you from infection
with the other. Ganglia are local; people can and do get infected with both
types in two areas.

There really is no *point* in pre-infecting yourself. It doesn't work that way.

You've put in a post to alt.support.herpes - that's a good group; you really
needn't be going to a parenting group and vaguely related medical groups (aids?
hepataitis?) and polyamory and sex groups about this.

Banty


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