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Can "Burning" Pain Kill?
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RalphRepo
medicine forum addict


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:03 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

Quote:
On 11 Mar 2006 19:47:00 -0800, "Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:
Hi:
I wonder what would happen if each of my voluntary muscles [including
speech muscles; excluding breathing muscles] were completely relaxed
into a state of total paralysis [and could not contract or "un-relax"
no matter how much stimulation those muscles recieved] and someone
surrounded me with oxyacetylene flames and burned the skin all around
my body resulting in extensive superficial partial-thickness burns.
Lets also say -- for some magical reason -- the burns did not cause
immune responses [or affect my immune system at all], inflammatory
reactions, or hypovolemic shock, and that my environment was totally
sterile [free of infective agents], free of allergens [and other
irritants] and that the burns had no affect on my respiratory system at
all. In addition, let's say that the pain I experienced did not cause
hyperventilation and did not affect the respiratory system or immune
system at all and that I was totally conscious during this burning
procedure. Last but not least, lets say I am otherwise [other than the
burns and paralysis] totally healthy. What effects would the
excruciating pain of the burns have on my nervous and circulatory
systems? Would those effects be fatal?
Due to the paralysis, I would obviously be unable to scream or flinch
no matter how much pain I am in.
Thanks,
Radium

It's nice to read assinine questions like these every once in a while.
Sort of validates the need for psychiatry.

Ralph
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Radium
medicine forum addict


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

RalphRepo wrote:

Quote:
It's nice to read assinine questions like these every once in a while.
Sort of validates the need for psychiatry.

Oh give me a break. Just because I am extremely interested in
hypothetical scenarios does not mean I am mentally-ill.
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RalphRepo
medicine forum addict


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

Quote:
On 13 Mar 2006 21:48:56 -0800, "Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:


RalphRepo wrote:

It's nice to read assinine questions like these every once in a while.
Sort of validates the need for psychiatry.

Oh give me a break. Just because I am extremely interested in
hypothetical scenarios does not mean I am mentally-ill.

The way you're asking the question points to the fact that you know
very little about the mechanism of burn injuries. You're mixing
improbables with the fantastic, then insist that you're asking a
reasonable "scientific" question. That burns selectively affect only
certain organ systems and not others is not only unrealistic; any
cause and effect theory based on those mechanisms of injury would then
be purely speculative. Example: if you eat, but the digestive tract is
unable to process food, and then also refuses to release the ingested
but undigested material; are you full of s**t or not?

The short answer? Anyone that burns himself like that is probably
going to quickly die. You can look up the "whys" in a textbook. And if
you don't like what you read, you can selectively tear out pages until
you get a scenario that fits your agenda, whatever the hell it is.

Ralph
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Radium
medicine forum addict


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

RalphRepo wrote:

Quote:
The short answer? Anyone that burns himself like that is probably
going to quickly die. You can look up the "whys" in a textbook. And if
you don't like what you read, you can selectively tear out pages until
you get a scenario that fits your agenda, whatever the hell it is.

In my hypothetical case, I guess the victim's cardiovascular system
would go out of control from the stress and pain.

Extreme stress can kill either by overworking the heart [sympathetic
overload] or relaxing it way too much [parasympathetic overreaction].
If the cardiovascular system is over-stimulated, the heartbeat can
become disorderly and the 4 chambers of the heart stop communicating
with each other. This can be fatal on its own. In other cases, after
over-stimulation, blood pressure rises excessively, this causes the
parasympthetic nervous system to kick in which in turn results in a
decrease in the strength and speed of the heart. This causes a dramatic
decrease in blood pressure. To make things worse, the parasympthetic
system causes blood vessels around the body to widen causing blood
pressure to fall even further. This extremely low blood pressure
results in loss of blood supply to vital organs and is therefore fatal.

Is my guess correct?
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RalphRepo
medicine forum addict


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

Quote:
On 14 Mar 2006 12:57:15 -0800, "Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:

RalphRepo wrote:
The short answer? Anyone that burns himself like that is probably
going to quickly die. You can look up the "whys" in a textbook. And if
you don't like what you read, you can selectively tear out pages until
you get a scenario that fits your agenda, whatever the hell it is.

In my hypothetical case, I guess the victim's cardiovascular system
would go out of control from the stress and pain.
Extreme stress can kill either by overworking the heart [sympathetic
overload] or relaxing it way too much [parasympathetic overreaction].
If the cardiovascular system is over-stimulated, the heartbeat can
become disorderly and the 4 chambers of the heart stop communicating
with each other. This can be fatal on its own. In other cases, after
over-stimulation, blood pressure rises excessively, this causes the
parasympthetic nervous system to kick in which in turn results in a
decrease in the strength and speed of the heart. This causes a dramatic
decrease in blood pressure. To make things worse, the parasympthetic
system causes blood vessels around the body to widen causing blood
pressure to fall even further. This extremely low blood pressure
results in loss of blood supply to vital organs and is therefore fatal.
Is my guess correct?

It's actually a bit different than you imagine. You seem to focus on
one thing while ignoring many others, not purposely, but rather from
ignorance of what is really important versus what, while true, is not
so important. This is typical of either a medical or nursing student.
In other words, you know facts in a vacuum without any clinical
context. And the only way that you would get such context is to work
in that environment. So if you don't know any of this, don't feel bad,
nor am I saying this to belittle you; I'm not. That's just how
experience works.

Your "partial" thickness burn, when affecting over 90% of the body can
be fatal for two main reasons; dehydration and infection. Your burn
wound would leak live a sieve. With burn injuries, the first 72 hours
focuses almost solely on fluid and pain management. Partial thickness
burns are more painful because the nerve endings are still intact. And
they leak fluids because the capillaries are still viable.

Your view of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system and
it's effects on cardiac function is straight out of a textbook, ie. in
a vacuum, so while academically correct, ignores many other
physiologic influences and demands.

Again, such patients are usually purposely sedated and then chemically
paralyzed to decrease the amount of oxygen demand overall. Blood
pressure, as a measure of systemic vascular resistence, must be kept
low, allowing the heart to pump against less pressure; hence
increasing cardiac output and systemic perfusion. If myoglobin from
deteriorating muscle mass accumulates, such patients may undergo
hemodialysis to preclude permanent renal damage. If charring around
the chest occurs, emergency escharotomy may need to be performed to
facilitate chest wall expansion. If lung searing from inhaled heat
occurred, then there may be either a pneumo or hemothorax, requiring a
chest tube. Steroids to bolster cellular integrity, antibiotics to
fight infection, and constant monitoring in an ICU that specializes in
burn care may save such a person's life. He or she would still look
like s**t and need skin grafts and or transplants.

On this note, just a bit of FYI to anyone reading: NEVER TREAT A FRESH
BURN WITH BUTTER OR ANY OTHER THICK GREASE. IT SEALS IN THE HEAT SO
THAT THE BURN DAMAGE CONTINUES.

You treat a burn with a quick application of cold water, wet
dressings, and a trip to the Emergency Department.

Ralph
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David Wright
medicine forum Guru


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 750

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

In article <D8ZQf.3595$o41.856@trnddc06>,
OldGoat <oldgoatmail@ERdocsuckyahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
Dear Radium,

Your questions are a bit off the wall, kind of like if you went in to space
and had a constant oxygen supply how long would it take for you to explode
for the vacuum of space. Whether you're the most muscular, strongest man in
the world or a 90 pound weakling with atrophied muscles, the results would
be the same. "POP".and you become orbiting hamburger.

Bodies do not "explode in the vacuum of space." Remember that scene
in "2001: A Space Odyssey" where Bowman jumps out of his space pod
and into the airlock, despite the vacuum? That was scientifically
accurate.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
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Ronnie
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:32 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

Ralph you just about summed up what hubby went
through after he was burned so bad. You mentioned
skin grafts. He had little skin to harvest to do grafts
and then the wait for that skin to rejuvinate so it could
be harvested again. 6 months in hospital and yes in
many cases *burning * pain can kill but in hubbys
case it was his *determination to live* that didnt kill
him.

Ronnie
--
*When one candle burns out..
Another is lit*

"RalphRepo" <Alice.BangZoom@Moon> wrote in message
news:r9pe12hjaqnhmjbdmh28ngnouajnk78615@4ax.com...
Quote:
On 14 Mar 2006 12:57:15 -0800, "Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:

RalphRepo wrote:
The short answer? Anyone that burns himself like that is probably
going to quickly die. You can look up the "whys" in a textbook. And if
you don't like what you read, you can selectively tear out pages until
you get a scenario that fits your agenda, whatever the hell it is.

In my hypothetical case, I guess the victim's cardiovascular system
would go out of control from the stress and pain.
Extreme stress can kill either by overworking the heart [sympathetic
overload] or relaxing it way too much [parasympathetic overreaction].
If the cardiovascular system is over-stimulated, the heartbeat can
become disorderly and the 4 chambers of the heart stop communicating
with each other. This can be fatal on its own. In other cases, after
over-stimulation, blood pressure rises excessively, this causes the
parasympthetic nervous system to kick in which in turn results in a
decrease in the strength and speed of the heart. This causes a dramatic
decrease in blood pressure. To make things worse, the parasympthetic
system causes blood vessels around the body to widen causing blood
pressure to fall even further. This extremely low blood pressure
results in loss of blood supply to vital organs and is therefore fatal.
Is my guess correct?

It's actually a bit different than you imagine. You seem to focus on
one thing while ignoring many others, not purposely, but rather from
ignorance of what is really important versus what, while true, is not
so important. This is typical of either a medical or nursing student.
In other words, you know facts in a vacuum without any clinical
context. And the only way that you would get such context is to work
in that environment. So if you don't know any of this, don't feel bad,
nor am I saying this to belittle you; I'm not. That's just how
experience works.

Your "partial" thickness burn, when affecting over 90% of the body can
be fatal for two main reasons; dehydration and infection. Your burn
wound would leak live a sieve. With burn injuries, the first 72 hours
focuses almost solely on fluid and pain management. Partial thickness
burns are more painful because the nerve endings are still intact. And
they leak fluids because the capillaries are still viable.

Your view of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system and
it's effects on cardiac function is straight out of a textbook, ie. in
a vacuum, so while academically correct, ignores many other
physiologic influences and demands.

Again, such patients are usually purposely sedated and then chemically
paralyzed to decrease the amount of oxygen demand overall. Blood
pressure, as a measure of systemic vascular resistence, must be kept
low, allowing the heart to pump against less pressure; hence
increasing cardiac output and systemic perfusion. If myoglobin from
deteriorating muscle mass accumulates, such patients may undergo
hemodialysis to preclude permanent renal damage. If charring around
the chest occurs, emergency escharotomy may need to be performed to
facilitate chest wall expansion. If lung searing from inhaled heat
occurred, then there may be either a pneumo or hemothorax, requiring a
chest tube. Steroids to bolster cellular integrity, antibiotics to
fight infection, and constant monitoring in an ICU that specializes in
burn care may save such a person's life. He or she would still look
like s**t and need skin grafts and or transplants.

On this note, just a bit of FYI to anyone reading: NEVER TREAT A FRESH
BURN WITH BUTTER OR ANY OTHER THICK GREASE. IT SEALS IN THE HEAT SO
THAT THE BURN DAMAGE CONTINUES.

You treat a burn with a quick application of cold water, wet
dressings, and a trip to the Emergency Department.

Ralph
Back to top
RalphRepo
medicine forum addict


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

Quote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 22:32:34 -0500, "Ronnie" <ronnie@niantictoolinc.com> wrote:
Ralph you just about summed up what hubby went
through after he was burned so bad. You mentioned
skin grafts. He had little skin to harvest to do grafts
and then the wait for that skin to rejuvinate so it could
be harvested again. 6 months in hospital and yes in
many cases *burning * pain can kill but in hubbys
case it was his *determination to live* that didnt kill
him.
Ronnie
*When one candle burns out..
Another is lit*

Burns are some of the most horrible injuries to ever have to deal
with, both from the patient's (esp) and the caregiver's. Not a nice
thing.

I hope your husband is on the mend and on the road to recovery. Like
you alluded to, often, it's the human spirit that's the most powerful
medicine.

Ralph
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Radium
medicine forum addict


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

Ronnie wrote:
Quote:
Hubby had 70% of his body burned years ago. He
had to learn to walk and talk again.

He had to re-learn talking and walking? Did the fire burn into his
brain or something?

No offense but if he lost memory of how to walk and talk than the
injury had to have directly attacked his brain. Either that or it is
PTSD. PTSD can -- in some cases -- cause memory lapses.
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JEDilworth
medicine forum addict


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

Do you have ANY CONCEPTION as to what burns do to people's muscles or
their face? It literally burns them away! You have nothing but scar
tissue that contracts. Your legs and/or face just doesn't work any more.
Watch Discovery Health Channel sometime when they feature burn recovery
patients.

Try talking or walking without your facial or leg muscles sometime.

Sheesh!

Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP)
Microbiology

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1142557696.280190.152580@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

He had to re-learn talking and walking? Did the fire burn into his
brain or something?

[more idiotic drivel snipped]
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RalphRepo
medicine forum addict


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

Quote:
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 00:03:41 -0500, "JEDilworth" <bactitech@nospamhortonsbay.com> wrote:

Do you have ANY CONCEPTION as to what burns do to people's muscles or
their face? It literally burns them away! You have nothing but scar
tissue that contracts. Your legs and/or face just doesn't work any more.
Watch Discovery Health Channel sometime when they feature burn recovery
patients.

Try talking or walking without your facial or leg muscles sometime.

Sheesh!

Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP)
Microbiology

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1142557696.280190.152580@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...

He had to re-learn talking and walking? Did the fire burn into his
brain or something?

[more idiotic drivel snipped]

Radium, it's like this, if someone chopped your fingers off, and you
had to learn to type these msgs with your knuckles and nose; would you
reasonably conclude that you've suffered brain damage?

You're focusing on PTSD or some other "novel" or esoteric reasons to
the extent that you simply ignore the obvious.

Ralph
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Ronnie
medicine forum beginner


Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

He had 70% of his body burned. He went from
being 135 to 78 pounds. From his chin to his groin
in front. Neck to butt in back. Both arms and both
legs to feet. Your brain does know how to walk but
the body wasnt willing. As far as talking the throat
was scorched on the inside hence words wouldnt
pronounce right.

Ronnie


*When one candle burns out..
Another is lit*

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1142557696.280190.152580@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

Ronnie wrote:
Hubby had 70% of his body burned years ago. He
had to learn to walk and talk again.

He had to re-learn talking and walking? Did the fire burn into his
brain or something?

No offense but if he lost memory of how to walk and talk than the
injury had to have directly attacked his brain. Either that or it is
PTSD. PTSD can -- in some cases -- cause memory lapses.
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Radium
medicine forum addict


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

RalphRepo wrote:

Quote:
He or she would still look
like s**t and need skin grafts and or transplants.

Superficial burns usually don't scar or need grafts or transplants.
They often heal completely by natural means.
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RalphRepo
medicine forum addict


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:57 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

Quote:
On 18 Mar 2006 15:23:47 -0800, "Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:
RalphRepo wrote:

He or she would still look
like s**t and need skin grafts and or transplants.

Superficial burns usually don't scar or need grafts or transplants.
They often heal completely by natural means.

Yeah? Show me a "superficial" burn from an oxyacetylene flame. In case
you're not aware, to qualify as an "oxyacetylene" they must burn in
excess of 3000 degress celsius. Even the briefest of exposure to such
a flame source will burn you beyond belief.

But then again, this is a magical question. So why bother.

Good bye

Ralph
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Radium
medicine forum addict


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:26 am    Post subject: Re: Can "Burning" Pain Kill? Reply with quote

RalphRepo wrote:

Quote:
Blood pressure, as a measure of systemic vascular resistence, must be kept
low, allowing the heart to pump against less pressure; hence
increasing cardiac output and systemic perfusion.

Blood pressure show be lower to increase perfusion and cardiac output?
How does that work?

Lower blood pressure means less output and perfusion.

Quote:
If lung searing from inhaled heat
occurred, then there may be either a pneumo or hemothorax, requiring a
chest tube.

Hemothorax and pneumothorax are caused by *mechanical* injuries NOT
*thermal* injuries.

http://www.answers.com/pneumothorax

http://www.answers.com/topic/hemothorax?method=22
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